engine and drivetrain UPDATE: 2010-07-29 serious questions for engine builders

[williamggruff]

2010-07-29 Update at bottom of this post.

Over the past year I purchased two 2002's, and was able to drive each of them ONCE before each car's bottom end died. One spun rod bearings. The other had been dicked around by the PO, and had JB Weld keeping the block intact, and dented and burned pistons. I'm a bit exasperated with this nonsense, but certainly not beaten. I'm thinking of building (or having someone with more motor assembly experience build for me) a strong, reliable motor. Before I throw an armload of money at this problem, I am seeking advice here regarding this venture. I am open to any comments, questions, concerns, consternation and/or curses you're willing to provide.

A few notes:

I've been reading up on motor parts for a few months. I'm aware there are a variety of ways to build a high performance motor. I want to go the normally aspirated route for nostalgia, and because I've always enjoyed the sound of dual Webers. I'm not really interested in an S14 or M20 swap--too much fab work. I want a motor that puts a big smile on my face, but one that has components that will take a licking and keep on ticking for many years to come. I would rather over-engineer the motor to reduce the likelihood that it'll blow up due to a missed shift, than squeeze extra power from a motor that's questionable under stress.

I have a recently rebuilt e21 head and a crank in great shape. I've had these parts inspected by Autothority in Chantilly, VA. I have the original block from my 76, which I'll have dipped and checked out.

I've shopped around for parts and have come up with the list of items below. I'm not wed to any of them, individually or in combination: it's just a list that seems to cover most of the issues I've come across. I'm hoping to receive comments on any and all of the parts, along with the general approach.

Bottom end:

1. Cylinders bored and honed.

2. Oil journals chamfered

3. Crank ground, hardened and polished

4. Forged JE pistons with good set of rings, looking for roughly 10:1 compression

5. IE H-beam rods, or equivalent rods that are light and strong

6. Race-coated bearings to match the rods and mains,

7. New oil pump

8. New guide rails

9. New timing chain

10. Mechanical timing chain tensioner

11. Lighten 228mm flywheel

12. Oil scraper

13. Urethane motor mounts (front subframe has been reinforced substantially)

14. Anything missing?

Head, intake, exhaust:

1. Cometic head gasket

2. Stainless steel valves

3. Dual valve springs

4. Norris 305 cam (purchased on the FAQ a few months ago)

5. Titanium valve retainers

6. Heavy duty valve locks

7. IE aluminum billet rockers (supposedly lighter and harder than stock)

8. Dual Weber 45s

9. IE stainless exhaust (I have IE's end-to-end exhaust with a normal header, but this motor might want a step header)

10. Wideband O2 sensor

11. Anything missing?

Other parts, indirectly related that are going in the car:

1. Tii distributor with optical sensor

2. Streetfire or MSD 6-AL ignition (have both)

3. Sport/autocross clutch

4. Upgraded springs and struts, adjustable camber, 5-spd, etc.

Are there approaches that would get similar results with less hassle and/or money that I should consider?

Many thanks in advance for your insights.

UPDATE 2010-07-29

So...

I priced out the parts and machining for the motor described above, and took into consideration the vast amount of useful advice that I received from my fellow FAQers. Total damage was going to be somewhere in the range of $8-10k. Ouch. When I said those numbers out loud the neighborhood dogs barked in pain and my wallet tried to hide itself in the sofa. But I understood that quality comes at a price, and I figured I could sell a few kilos of heroin to the local school kids and everything would work out fine.

I bought an E12 head from a FAQer and the seller kindly shipped it to Top End Performance on my behalf. I spoke with the kind folks at Top End and they were quite helpful. Joe at Top End provided me with a variety of options, and was prepared to set me up with a performance tuned head, pistons, rods, DCOE's, etc--pretty much everything I needed to build a high-revving motor that would be wildly impractical for the street and a real hoot on the track.

I went on vacation for a few weeks, thought about the situation pretty much night and day, and made up my mind to pull the trigger. You only live once, no regrets, bird in the hand, better dead in the red, whatever. I returned from Hawaii on a Friday afternoon with a solid tan and a plan to call Top End on Monday. Since I live on the east coast, I had to wait until noon local time on Monday to call Top End and give them the go ahead. Unfortunately, work got in the way and I had to wait until Tuesday. So Tuesday at noon, June 15th. That was the day. Going for broke. Waiting for noon. Counting the hours. Tick tock. Tick tock.

And then, at 11:15 AM, BLUNT posted that he was thinking of parting out his '69 which had an Eric Kerman stroker with 4,000 miles on it. M3 crank. Bored out to 92mm. Aluminum flywheel. E12 head. DCOE 40's. M3 starter. M3 clutch. BLUNT price.

What to do?!?!

Short story long, BLUNT's Kerman motor is currently mounted to a freshly painted front subframe in my garage. Installation of the motor and accompanying 5-speed trans (also purchased from BLUNT) is scheduled to commence at 9:00 AM this Saturday at my place in Arlington, VA. I'll post a separate thread regarding the installation jamboree and comedy show.

I wish to offer my sincere thanks to the many FAQ members who offered assistance and provided me the benefits of their hard-earned knowledge. Without your insights, I wouldn't have recognized BLUNT's post for what it was, and would have gone all the way down the rabbit hole with or without the blue pill. To those of you who are taken aback or disheartened to learn that I'm going the smarter, safer route, despair not; I have an incredible propensity to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, and I have the surgical records, photographs and financial statements to back this claim. So this will not be the last time I get myself into a mess with a motor, and I doubt I'll be as lucky the next time around.

http://picasaweb.google.com/grice.mulligan/20100724SubframeReadyWithMotorAndTrans?feat=directlink

Grice

[BillWilliams]

Have you thought about making the motor "bigger" M3 crank and larger JE pistons? Make it a 2.23?

[williamggruff]

Bill,

Thank you for your question. I plan to bore it out to 2.2 +/-, but am not sure where big bore meets thin wall. Any guidance regarding the pros and cons of increasing the bore will be appreciated. I don't really have an opinion on the crank issue. If using an alternative crank will make the car produce more power without increasing the risk of engine failure, I'll gladly consider it.

Grice

[BillWilliams]

Ok., I am out of my league but to get to 2.23 "safely" you should increase the bore and the use a different crank for a longer stroke. See, I am out of my league for sure.

The combination of these two will give you the 2.23. I forgot the numbers on my yellow car but it has the M3 crank and larger JE pistons.

the larger bottom end will give you a bit more torque and your cam will do the top end

[FB73tii]

Looks good overall. What is the lift of the Norris 305? What is expected redline and power/torque target? A few thoughts:

Bottom end:

If crank in "great shape' no need to grind, harden and polish.

Consider an S14 crank with 144mm rods. A 91.5mm bore should give 2.2 liters.

Lighten crank

ARP main bearing studs. IE rods come with ARP rod bolts.

Baffled oil pan (in addition to scraper)

Dry sump system ($2.5K +/-)

Head, intake, exhaust:

ARP Studs

intake porting

+1 valves

Ignition/Electrical:

Crank fire trigger

Drivetrain:

Consider IE solid puck clutch with M3 pressure plate

Fred

'74tii

[Tommy]

I have few things that I would do differently. Mostly matters of opinion I guess.

What already was mentioned that don't grind a good crank. Good std size crank is better than one that's ground down for smaller bearing.

I don't know about benefit of race bearings and chamfered oil journals. I have raced several years with std stuff without problems. Ok the bearings have often been a bit scored when I've opened them so maybe there's something to improve.

Cometic is overkill and not necessarily any better. I've heard about trouble with them, I don't know more and never used myself. Tii cutting ring gasket is bulletproof for N/A engine.

Billet rockers are overkill and so many have had them fail (me included). For your target I would choose std rockers, or possibly the heavy duty cast ones from Ireland if there is any experience about them yet. Stay below 7200 rpm and you're safe.

For cam and valve springs I would choose Dr.Schrick but Norris is good too I guess.

Add some kind of oil pan baffle on the list.

New wheels with the timing chain.

I would want an ignition box with adjustable rev limiter. I don't know if those have one?

If you want to save money the standard rods are very good. They just need to be checked. I don't see a big benefit from H-beams. For street tune no need for ARP anything, new std fasteners are good enough.

I would recommend getting the parts checked and machined professionally, then double check everything that's possible by yourself and assemble yourself. Then you know exactly what's in your engine!

Tommy

[Mike Self]

This applies if you're building a motor for primarily street use and if not a daily driver, more than an occasional weekend drive...

10:1 Compression is pretty high for pump gas; I get pinging with 9.5 pistons even after dialing my timing back a little...

A 305 cam is gonna give you a pretty lopey idle--might be a little radical for a street car...ask opinions of those who have 'em.

Second the motion on rods--factory rods are just fine unless you're planning to do some serious revving...they don't fail very often. Same with rockers. They're pretty robust from the factory. And don't forget to at least mic the shafts to make sure they're not worn. Might as well replace 'em if you're doing all the other stuff...

I think to get a 2.5 liter M10, you need to go with an S-14 bore and an EVO S-14 crank.

A good way to lighten the 228 mm flywheel is to take half-moon-shaped bites out of the edge, between the pressure plate mounting holes. Removing weight from the edge counts for more than removing it from the center due to centrifugal force.

good luck

mike

[williamggruff]

Hi Fred,

Thank you for your comments and questions.

On the Norris 305, max valve lift on intake is 0.441 inches (11.2014 mm) and on exhaust is 0.447 inches (11.3538 mm.) If I understand correctly, 10.35 mm is the valve lift with stock springs, and anything above 10.5 mm requires upgraded springs and lash caps in order to avoid valve float at higher RPMs. I figure if I order a set of custom forged pistons, and I indicate which head, the cam specs, crank and rods I plan to use, along with accurate measurements on the block and head height, I should be able to get pistons that won't interfere.

I'm leaning toward staying with a standard M10 crank, with a possible grind if the crank surfaces are worn beyond tolerance. I'm also leaning toward knife-edging the crank to reduce the rotating mass and enable the crank to cut through the oil a bit better, which should allow for higher revs. I'm under the impression that knife-edging will not reduce the structural integrity of the crank, but would prefer to get an expert opinion on this before I go that route.

I have an oil pan that has an added baffle, though not a super fancy version with multiple trapdoors. I've looked at the Isihara-Johnson crank scraper, which I'll order to match a knife-edged crank. In combination with the baffles in my oil pan, I'm hoping it'll do the trick.

I'm under the impression that a dry sump is a serious track system, and might not be necessary for a street/weekend track car. For $2500, it might be overkill. I suspect I could go with an oil cooler approach as seen here: http://77e21.info/strokerbuildoilsystem.htm if its deemed necessary.

I'm a bit concerned that a solid puck clutch would be a bit troublesome on the street, hence my preference for a sprung autocross clutch, though it's possible I'm misunderstanding your intention.

I'll definitely go with new head and main bolts. I get the impression from various posts on the FAQ that ARP fasteners may be overkill for an NA motor that probably won't exceed 180 hp. Again, I could be wrong on this, so I'm all ears.

Thanks again for your comments. Please keep them coming. I'm hoping to start the machining and buying process during the next few weeks, with the motor installation in late June or early July.

Grice

[BillWilliams]

I think Mike has good point, as usual. Decide if this is a track car or a fast street car. Then your choices will come clear to you.

I lightened my flywheel the way Mike mentions. Looking for a photo now

[Inka114]

I've had good luck with Centerforce clutches for street and autocross use. Haven't broken one yet, and not for lack of trying.

[williamggruff]

Tommy,

Thank you for your comments. Much appreciated.

Regarding the race bearings, I'm only going on what I've read on the IE website and in a few posts on the web. The cost of the bearings isn't too high, so as long as they're not going to hurt, I figure I might as well go with them. I don't have any applicable experience, so I'm certainly open to experience from others.

A Tii cutting edge gasket sounds like a decent approach, especially since it will reduce the cost by $100 or so.

You note that the billet rockers have proven to be a failure point. This is a bit disappointing, but it will also reduce the cost of the build by about $400, so I'm inclined to go with IE heavy duty rockers as you've suggested. May I ask what was the type of failure you experienced? I'm hoping to have a top end that will allow me to miss shift, rev over 8k for a moment, and have some chance of the head surviving. I don't plan to run the motor at 7k all day, as the car will be on the track for club racing and HPDE sessions occasionally, with spirited driving at all other times.

Regarding the timing chain gear, would you recommend a single or double row gear and chain? I note that Ireland recommends single row for race engines, but I get the impression that race engines get rebuilt frequently. I don't plan on rebuilding my motor every year. If using a double row chain and gear will give me some extra longevity at the cost of slightly lower revs, that's a trade-off I can handle. If there are other issues with going with a single vs double chain and gear, I'd love to hear them.

Both of the ignition boxes that I'm considering have rev limiters. I suspect the rev limiter would be set relatively low during engine break-in, with the setting raised once the break-in period is complete.

I'm primarily considering H-beam rods due to their reduced weight and (claimed) increased strength over the standard rods. Any experience that folks on the FAQ have with H-beams would be appreciated.

I plan to have all parts checked and machined professionally, with the rotating masses balanced. I don't have the measuring tools or the experience to do that portion myself. I will most likely have the bottom end and head assembled and tested professionally, if for no other reason than it'll get me a warranty. I'm comfortable using a torque wrench and following instructions, but I'm also prone to clumsy / rookie mistakes. The few motors that I've assembled were for Fords (2.3 liter, in-line 4s from the 70's and 80's, and a 1942 Ford tractor motor), and I haven't played engine builder since the early 80's. Additionally, I don't have a good, clean work space in which to assemble the parts, so I'd be risking polluting my motor with old barn ju-ju. I'll be doing the installation, tuning, etc. with the Ivy Street Gang, including Clay, Jay, Dudley and anybody else who's willing and able to lend a hand.

Grice

[williamggruff]

Mike,

Thank you for your comments.

I've read numerous comments regarding compression here on the FAQ, and I'm still a bit fuzzy on the upper limit for a street car. If going with a crank trigger will help to eliminate pinging, I can be convinced to go that route and eliminate the Tii distributor. But I'd like to go with a normally aspirated motor rather than EDIS or forced induction. I'd also like to be able to run the car on pump gas, which is available with 93 octane in the NoVA/DC/MD area. It appears that the compression limit is somewhere in the 9.5 to 10.5:1 range under these conditions. Any guidance I can get on this will be appreciated.

I intend to use the car for spirited driving, HPDE classes, and club racing. The car will not be used as a daily driver. I have a daily driver for running errands and long trips. That said, I want to be able to drive the car on the street, even if it means maintaining higher revs at idle with some lopiness. As the local 2002 gang can probably attest, I'm a bit lopey myself.

Grice

[NickVyse]

here's another option.

If you're not planning on doing the work yourself then why not just get an off-the self proven combo from someone like Metric Mechanic?

http://www.metricmechanic.com/prices/pricing-engines.php

[BillWilliams]

Grice, again I am out of my row here. Erik Kerman built my motor and he refused to take my motor above 9.5:1 due to poor gas and the quality of gas is not getting better.

[JohnC]

If going with a crank trigger will help to eliminate pinging, I can be convinced to go that route and eliminate the Tii distributor. But I'd like to go with a normally aspirated motor rather than EDIS or forced induction.

The crank trigger will help to eliminate pinging only in that it will allow you to tweak your timing by creating a customized spark advance curve in software without messing with distributor hardware. If your compression ratio is too high, you'll have to retard the timing to the point that it's counter productive with pump gas. You'll have more HP with a lower compression ratio. 10:1 or higher would be OK if you're using race fuel on the track and are willing to retard the timing and suffer the loss of HP on the street with pump gas.

BTW, EDIS is an ignition system that is compatible with both normally aspirated and forced induction. It works well with Megasquirt, which can control both fuel and spark, or Megajolt, which will control the spark and allow you to use side drafts if that's what you want to do.