ALPINA A4 Injection (Auction)

[jerry]

... the cone that is in that pump I am guessing is substantially different than an A4 pump cone, given that it will flow fuel for a +280bhp motor as opposed to the 170bhp for the ALPINA A4.

this brings up an interesting quandry for me.

i now understand what Pete was asking above. If as you say the original ALPINA A4 engine put out 170hp, i think it's fair to say that all that power was not due to the ITB's and pump alone. i believe you posted several months ago costs to reproduce an Alpina Head and other tweaks to the engine and it was not trivial.

i'm guessing there's very few folks with the genuine Alpina KF pump on their car and even if a person had the authentic pump, chances are slim that the engine was custom built as alpina intended. inkatouring is the only person i know of that had the Alpina pump with his system and to my knowledge the only tweak to his engine was an S14 crank and an E21 head (stock, i'm assuming).

i guess my question is, how to quantify the difference in fuel flow alone to the gain in HP? would there be a tendency to waste fuel if the engine couldn't take advantage of it? there's been discussions on tweaking linkages on standard KF pumps to work with the A4 system to satisfactory results and it is entirely possible that using the alpina KF on a standard tii engine would be pointless.

but, then again, at these prices, these bits are equal parts car 'jewelry' as they are relevant performance bits.... let's be honest.

[markmac]

Inkatouring's pump was originally purchased by myself from ALPINA, back in 1993 or so at a cost of $2,220.xx, pretty serious money back then for that part. The ALPINA A4s engine consisted of the following - Cylinder head - full hemisperical combustion chambers with matching pistons ("Schmiedekolben"), lightened and polished ALPINA 46mm intake and 39mm exhaust valves, 300 degree camshaft (They had one of their own design and also used BMW's large bearing factory sport cam), ALPINA valve springs, I heard tell they used ALPINA 4 cylinder lightened rocker arms but to tell the truth I have NEVER actually seen one of those - it was a catalogue item though once upon a time. Compression ration was typically 10.0-1 however I have seen them at 10.5-1 as well. Lightened and polished conrods. Extensive porting and port matching both intake and exhaust sides, including near elimination of the valve guides (in port). Exhaust header, either 4-1 or tri-y. After that there were other things that might be part of that engine, higher capacity oil pump, oil cooler, large capacity baffled sump. So you are right, alot of work and expense to squeeze that extra hp out of the motor. One link below is to that ALPINA A4 pump post I did and the other is to the entire label of for "ALPINA Parts - street". Look out though over 100 posts in that label!

http://www.alpinabmw2002.com/2010/06/alpina-a4-kugelfischer-injection-pump.html

http://www.alpinabmw2002.com/search/label/ALPINA%20Parts%20-%20Street

[markmac]

The British Pound is only .62 dollars. Just a thought...

Just did a quick check, just tipped 2500£ (or about $4,010 USD) with about 20 hours left in the auction. I suggested to the seller between 4/5k USD so we will see where it ends. I am definitely NOT in on this one.

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Guest Anonymous]

3,970.00 British Pounds!

[markmac]

Just saw that - crap $6,367 USD, someone wanted it real bad (real). I thought maybe 5k tops, but 6k with the ..... never mind.... and no air box....stop. A big number. I am sort of stunned.

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[markmac]

Thats it, unless I was able to pry one out of someone's lifeless hands for a "reasonable" price, my street car would be on carbs, lets face it you can get the same HP out of a SOHC engine on carbs as you can with the injection, not quite as sexy maby but good god $6,000 (I am still in shock on that one).

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[pwagon717]

Well I under sold my Alpina stuff

[jerry]

just imagine if the bidder made a mistake on the conversion rate calculation!!!!

okay, markmac, what is your commission on this????? ;-)

what this suggests to me is that there are some folks who could afford to be low to mid price porsche or alfa romeo buyers are entering the 02 world and setting the bar on the top of the owner's price mark for our humble little car.

i'd sure like to get my hands on that fuel cam, though......

i talked with my coworker this morning. we may still play with a conventional cone. i've got a turbo pump i can use for a comparison and see what, or to what extent they differ.

[Guest Anonymous]

Commission? hahahaha. I give out a lot of free advice - whatever. Only once has someone offered a commission and at the end he/I didn't have the time as it wasn't "sell itself" stuff like the ALPINA stuff is. I don't know that I have ever seen one of these sell for that much money. Right day, place, time, etc.,

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Armond]

Well I under sold my Alpina stuff

I was wondering what happened. I was waiting to get confirmation from you about the pump but never heard back. Anyway, glad you sold it.

Marc- Please check your e-mail. Thank you.

[zob2002]

About the internals of the Kugelfisher pump for A4 systems. People please stop dreaming or speculating.

I have 2 complete A4 engines and the pumps are standard pumps. Do not forget these pumps were able to deliver 180 hp at least and the max you could get out of an A4 was 175. The only thing Alpina has done for some A4S systems was modifying the return valve.

They modified extensively pumps for other engines but that is another story.

I have pumps capable of delivering 220, 250, 280 and 320 hp but these were definitely not for A4 systems/ The 320 one for instance is for Schnitzer 16 valve turbo engine and that is a completely different ballgame...

Tom from Belgium

[Guest Anonymous]

Pretty sure I am not dreaming. I have several pumps myself of varying specification (including +28- bhp). Tom, I will email you separately regarding this subject.

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[zob2002]

Mark,

I was commenting on Kugelfisher pumps for A4 systems...

Tom

[Guest Anonymous]

Going to be away this weekend but want to catch up with you next week on a variety of topics including this one (because I respect your knowledge!!!!!)

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Preyupy]

just imagine if the bidder made a mistake on the conversion rate calculation!!!!

okay, markmac, what is your commission on this????? ;-)

what this suggests to me is that there are some folks who could afford to be low to mid price porsche or alfa romeo buyers are entering the 02 world and setting the bar on the top of the owner's price mark for our humble little car.

i'd sure like to get my hands on that fuel cam, though......

i talked with my coworker this morning. we may still play with a conventional cone. i've got a turbo pump i can use for a comparison and see what, or to what extent they differ.

The turbo pump cam will not do you any good. On the Tii/A4 the cam is rotated based on engine rpm, the turbo pump rotates the cam based on manifold vacuume/pressure and has no change based on engine speed. The turbo pump also has larger pistons, it turns out they are the same size they used on the pumps for the M12 F2 engines (325hp @ 10,500 rpm Normandy aspirated) I know this because a shop that rebuilds these pumps just had to use the pump head from my spare turbo pump to get a M12 pump back up and running while they find replacement parts.