engine and drivetrain I need some advice on restoring vs buying complete...

[jate]

Ok, I want a 2002 as a 2nd car and I am wrestling with the decision to either have a car built from the ground up or buy a car that someone else has spent that money and looking to get out of it even a discount.

I own several restaurants and car washes around Salt Lake City and I would like a 2002 as car to drive around to my various stores. Some important attributes I want in a car are:

1. Reliable - I don't want to be constantly wrenching on a car because of old worn out parts.

2. drives and handles great - I have driven a couple 2002s that felt kinda flat without much power and I want a car that has some pep. I also want a car that handles well and is great driving around town.

3. Comfortable interior - AC and comfortable seats are important.

4. Excellent paint and body - I want a car that has excellent paint and doesn't look like some hack spray or semi fading original paint.

Color:

If I build a car is it a big deal to change the color from original. I like Ceylon and Fjord and a car that I am interested in is originally a Fjord Blue so would it really impact the value if I changed the color to Ceylon if I do a bare metal repaint? I don't mind the Fjord so I could just paint it that color but I do like Ceylon better. Seems like Ceylon is more rare and those cars sell quick - is that a fair assessment?

Interior:

I like the original interior when recovered. Most of the cars I see with Recaros I can't say I love but I can imagine they are a lot more comfortable. Is that accurate? Does having Recaros rather than original negatively impact the value?

Engine:

I am wondering if it is worth the extra money to buy a Metric Mechanic motor or just have a motor rebuilt locally. I had a mid 80s 635CSI with a MM motor and it was fantastic. I am wondering if/when selling the car if having a MM increases the resell enough to come close to offsetting the upfront investment. I see quite a few cars that say rebuilt engine but I never put as much value to that as I do when I see a car with a MM motor. Do you agree with that or am I overvaluing MM motors?

Transmission:

I really want a 5 spd because of the drivability on the highway. Is there any downside or risks with switching to a 5 spd?

Suspension:

Anything on the suspension I should make sure I do or don't do while the car is completely dismantled.

On a different note, my daughter who is 14 REALLY wants an Inka 02. Are these cars good first cars for a 16 year old? I wouldn't spend as much on a car for her but could take a nice car and put some money in it to make it nice for her. Any things I should think about here?

Thanks everyone I really appreciate you guys sharing your experience and thoughts with me.

Cheers,

JT

[68Roundie]

(nt)

[02again]

By a good E30 325is instead of an 02. All the above ready to go $6000

[jate]

I do agree but I really love the looks and character associated with a 2002. I already have a 2009 911 C4S that has all those items too but I really want a 2002.

[Jim_75Sahara]

The 2002 does not have modern heating and cooling. Actually, it's not modern in a lot of ways. (part of its appeal) If you have the passion, a strong desire to experience the 2002, buy one. If you want more comfort, more power, more reliability, you should get an E30 instead. The E30 is much newer, it is a few generations down the road toward the present BMW's. Nobody can tell you what to get to satisfy your unique personality, your own needs. We can steer you, but buy the one that moves you, buy the one that speaks to you.... (if you like Ceylon, get an E30 in 'Bronzitbeigemetallic' - lots of them out there)

I don't think that a 2002 is a good first car for a teen. UNLESS they show promise as a bimmerphile and a wrench-turner. (i.e. young enthusiast) Teens are not the best drivers at first, so let her total a Toyota or a Nissan before getting fancy.

[SteveJ]

Rosanne Rosannadana sez: " A Mr Richard Fader from Fort Lee,New Jersey writes..."

OK. Based on your wants, and your mentions of owning several businesses and not wanting to wrench on a car, you should do two things.

First, find a good mechanic that you can deal with and will work on old BMW's.

Second, buy the car that most fits the items on your list.

I wouldn't worry so much about "value" of any mods. The only time your car is valued is when you are selling it (or insurance is trying to fix/total it). If you are buying the car as an investment, buy the most original car, keep it that way, and don't drive it. That will keep the most value. If you are getting the car as a fun runabout, apply your mods as you wish.

People do the modifications to suit their needs, at that time. The rule of thumb a lot of us use is to not cut or drill if possible. If the modifcation bolts on (like Recaro seats), then it can be unbolted later on to go back to stock.

As has been said on this list, these are 40 year old cars and logic is sometimes far removed. 2002's can be super reliable, but they can also leave you stranded if you don't have the will or the skills to jump in and fix things on the fly.

Color changes are a butt load of work. I've done one, and never again. There will always be spots that you just couldn't get to. Unless you totally strip and dip the car, but then there goes any budget. Find a color you like and can live with.

Be aware that many parts for these cars have gone to "stupid pricing" Look at how much a grille set will cost. Paint and body/trim is the most expensive aspect of these cars. The running gear and drivetrain are fairly straight forward and reasonably priced. Unless you go crazy with upgrades.

For a young driver, they are a great car to learn on, but are becoming cost prohibitive to build a really nice car on a budget. For my son's first car, he ended up with an 1983 320iS. Still able to be wrenched on, but many of the parts haven't gone to stupid pricing. The advice given in a magazine years ago: Spend $1000 on the teen's first car, and another $1000 on driving lessons/track schools. They'll wring out much more from a $1000 car than they would if you spent the entire amount on just the car. If you stay with BMW, look for your local chapter Car Control Clinic or Street Survival class. WELL WORTH IT.

[Jim_75Sahara]

Finding a good old-school BMW mechanic is crucial - assuming you're not going to be the mechanic. I'm no mechanic, so I've relied on Mike McCarthy at Foreign Car Service. (FREE Plug) He's made mine extremely reliable and enjoyable. I've gotten help & advice from Mike Self and many others here on the FAQ. Since 2003 (when I purchased Dieter), I have become a LOT more knowledgeable, so I can make sure my '02 gets what it needs long before disaster strikes.

[jate]

Excellent points. I do have a good mechanic who is reasonable and has worked on some of the older BMWs I have owned in the past.

[Harv]

I'd say buy one that is done. I used to think there was some sort of badge that the world gave you for doing your own restoration or mods, but in the end there isn't. There might be some value in having a MM motor but if your thinking of getting the mony back at resale time, forget it. Don't get me wrong, they build a wonderful pile of bolts, it's just that it's not like your going to get an extra 4K for your car because it has one of Jim's motors. As was said above, these are 40 year old cars, and while they do things a lot better than any other 40 year old car, they still have their limitations. (HVAC).

Buy the nicest one you can afford.

Make your kid drive an old Volvo 240 or 740.

John

[eurotrash]

All of the above points are good, and there is the option of buying the 02 that best suits you in appearance/quality of work, and then having a quality M42 conversion done to attain that reliability factor. AndyS and a few others have excellent examples of gorgeous resto-mods with the m42 power plant. Its modern, more powerful and 'reliable'. Plus, if the natural 140ish HP isn't enough, there are bolt on Rotrex supercharger kits for that motor that are low maintenance and will get you close to a very street-able 200HP.

[thehackmechanic]

(nt)

[thehackmechanic]

Going through your post in order...

Buying Versus Restoring - Unless you weld, paint, and wrench yourself, it will ALWAYS be cheaper to buy a restored car than to restore one, so it depends on whether you want to go through the process. It is true that, if you go through the process, you can personalize all the the color, engine, and interior choices, and your post is full of them, so obviously you're thinking about it. But it's a long road, and very expensive. The adage for restoration is come up with a number for a budget, then triple it. It's probably best to start with a budgeted purchase number, look at what's out there in that price range, and see what comes closest. For your wish list (rare color, flawless paint, fast tight well-handling, 5-speed, working a/c, well sorted-out reliability-wise), you will probably need to look in the upper price echelons.

Reliability - An advantage of older cars is that they're simple. By and large, 2002s have incredibly reliable drivetrains. If you buy a car that's been recently mechanically refreshed (cooling system, fuel pump, alternator, starter, front end, guibo), this shouldn't be a major issue.

Drives and Handles Great - By modern standards, you're correct that 2002s can feel a bit anemic and "flat," as you say. If you can, drive several, including something stock, something modified, and a nice, tight tii. I doubt you'll say the tii feels "flat."

Comfortable Interior - Even when the A/C is working correctly in an '02, it doesn't compete well with even the lowliest shitbox Kia, but, through use of a modern rotary-style compressor and keeping R12 instead of converting to R134a, it should be possible to have A/C that works well enough to be functional when turned on high and aimed at your face. Regarding seats, people install Recaros because they are MUCH more comfortable and [/b]supportive than the 40 year old horsehair in the original seats. If EVERY other aspect of the car is bone-stock original, I suppose you could argue that Recaros affect the value, but this is almost hypothetical. Ideally you buy a car with decent original seats, take them out, store them, and put in Recaros.

Excellent Paint and Body - You say "I want a car that has excellent paint and doesn't look like some hack spray or semi fading original paint." You get what you pay for (HOPEFULLY you get what you pay for). You have to examine a car closely to judge a well-prepared car, with paint that's free of overspray and wet-sanded to give it that deep "fall into it" look.

Color - If you're buying this kind of car, you SHOULD love it. You should giggle with joy whenever you open the garage door and look at it. So color IS important. Ceylon, Tiaga, and Turkis are rare and hot, so well-prepared cars in these colors do bring a premium. Inka is not rare, but highly in demand. There is a lot of debate on this site about changing the color of cars, with some feeling that it is tantamount to painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa. I differ with many people in that I think you should paint a car the color you want. It's YOUR car. Tell anyone else to go to hell. I own a '73 3.0CSi that was originally Polaris (silver) that, 25 years ago I had repainted Signal Red, and have never looked back. No one turns up their nose at it; they go "ooooh!" But, as other posters have said, it adds substantially to the cost. To do it well (note that I'm not saying "to do it RIGHT" because "right" implies there's some moral issue) requires pulling most components out of the engine compartment, interior, trunk and doors. I would be unlikely to do it again, but I love it.

All other factors being equal (so, hypothetically, two hundred-point cars auctioned side-by-side), an original Ceylon car will be worth more than a repainted one, but all factors are rarely equal. Remember that Ralph Lauren changed the color of his Bugatti Type 57 SC Atlantic Coupe from blue to black because he likes black. So don't take these things too seriously.

Engine - Yes I think you are overvaluing a MM motor (nothing against Metric). At resale, the overall condition of the car, particularly the body, paint, and exterior is far more important than whether the car has a lightly-prepared engine. The exception is if the car has an S14 engine from an E30 M3.

Transmission - 5-speeds are great. A 2002 4-speed spins about 4000rpm at 70, making it a bit buzzy on the highway. With a 5-speed OD, it spins 4000rpm at about 80. The only real downside is that care must be taken to align the driveshaft during installation or else it'll eat guibos.

Suspension - It's not true that suspension work must be done "while the car is completely dismantled." For a street car, "suspension" means springs, front struts, rear shocks, and sway bars. These parts are easily replaced. Many people on this site run Bilstein HD shocks, shorter springs available from a variety of sources to lower the car about an inch, and heavier sway bars to reduce body roll. If, however, by "suspension" you mean pulling the front and rear subframes and their related components, and media-blasting them and repainting them to make them look like new, then yes this starts to cross into the realm of restoration.

Your 16 Year Old Daughter - Whether or not a 2002 is "a good first car" for her is a complex issue, but the short answer, as most people above have said, is that it's not. You can make the argument that the cheapest shitbox Kia with its ABS, airbags, and modern bumpers and engineered crumple zones is safer than an '02, or you can say the 2002, with its responsiveness and handling, is safer. Consumer Reports doesn't crash-test '02s, so anyone can say whatever they want. The fact is that ANY restored or original older car is something to be taken care of. If the car is driven in salt, or if it is exposed to moisture in the form of snow or rain, in a year it is going to look like someone set off a rust bomb beneath the car. Also, 16 year olds typically aren't great at taking care of things; they just have other things on their mind.

Good luck.

[Richard]

Drive an E30 cab (vert) and you will never look back. The weather in SLC is perfect for a convertible....

[Kpeters]

If you feel like spending tons of time and money for restoration because it makes you proud and happy to be the one who saved the car go that way otherwise you will be better off buying a restored one.

A/C is not good on 02's and lots of them are in bad shape. They were all dealer installed.

Reliability is good as long as it is well maintained since its such a simple car.

For a 16yr old? I don't think it's a good idea buy her something safe, 02's have no airbags, no abs, no traction control, no pyro seatbelts you get the point....

I'd say unless she is really nuts for an 02 buy her a modern car.

[Mike Self]

I have driven 2002s as daily drivers since 1969--year 'round until 2000 when I refurbished my '69 for the third time (paint and sheet metal) to repair the ravages of Ohio road salt. Now my 02s hibernate from first snow 'till last salt (usually Dec-early April).

They've been all over the country to BMW CCA Oktoberfests (Dayton to Austin TX, Ft Worth, Keystone CO, New Hampshire, Fla etc) and only once in 41 years has one failed to get me home--and that was last year when I blew a head gasket (unfortunately my own fault!) and the car came home on a tow dolly from Wisconsin. My 73 has 234k miles (30k on a rebuilt engine) and my 69 has 223k on the original engine. They're well maintained mechanically and are reliable daily drivers.

But as has been pointed out, they're not modern, so don't expect a state of the art A/C system (heater is fine), power everything, whisper quiet highway cruising etc. If you want all that with the fun of a 2002 with (more) modern conveniences, try an E30 318is (now my winter car). But even with my E30 I still look forward to getting the 02 out every spring...

cheers

mike