19 inch rims on a 2002!

[roadhog0]

I was about to say that sounds like something that GFR would write up Very true though.

[Guest Anonymous]

Let's see. Plus 6 doesn't change the handling characteristics? Horsepucky. The very nature of a 2002 is that it is a moderately powered, lightweight and tossible sedan with narrow tires. That is the nature of the vehicle. It's the same argument as stuffing an S14 in a 2002. You might like it, but it changes the original character of the car. I have a degree in applied mathmatics and a masters in engineering, so I get the math. 19's with rubber band tires changes the character of the 2002.

[Guest Anonymous]

You are completely destroying the character, handling characteristics, and nature of your 2002. Just say no.

I call bull on this one. I do vehicle dynamics for an FSAE team and, to a point, changing your tire sidewall size can be easily compensated for in spring and damper rate choices...

Using intuition I would say that 18s, or +5 is probably that point on an 02. So while technically the OP would be 'ruining' his handling characteristics with the wheels he mocked up, the same could be said for anyone who puts fat 205s on their 02. Its a similar degree of cocking about with the suspension. DON'T CARE ABOUT YOUR INTUITION

What about big brakes on an 02? Do they ruin the car's handling as well? They certainly add a bit of unsprung mass to the equation. And they provide more braking force than the originals that can lead to faster lockups... But what if the big brakes were added to a car that also now has wider wheels? A higher ultimate traction force coupled with a higher potential brake force alleviates the lockup problem and possibly keeps the character of the car...AT SOME POINT,THEY CHANGE THE CHARACTER OF THE CAR AS WELL. THE AMOUNT OF UNSPRUNG WEIGHT ON MOST BIGGER BRAKES IS MINIMAL.

02s were designed with very narrow and tall-sidewall tires. The kinds of tires that are only found on snow rally race cars today. These tires let the car wander around the road when one starts really pushing the car. It can lean, wiggle, and produce massive wheel slip angles all because of the tire. This can be exhilarating to the novice driver because the higher wheels slip angles mean that the traction breaking force or 'grip slip cliff' as I like to say, comes slower and perceptibly more controlled. To an experienced driver, the tire deflection and sensation of 'floating' can be very frustrating when attempting to accurately position the car on the driving surface. What if BMW was compensating their suspension and handling characteristics based on what tires were available at the time. YOU ARE SPEAKING TO IMPROVEMENTS. SPEAK TO AT WHAT POINT IMPROVEMENTS CHANGE THE NATURE OF THE CAR. WHAT ARE THE LIMITS BEFORE THAT IS MET? STAY ON SUBJECT. 19" WHEELS REPRESENT A HUGE CHANGE IN DYNAMICS, NOT A MINOR IMPROVEMENT. NO ONE IS TALKING ABOUT A SET OF 14" E30 RIMS HERE.

Modern BMWs come with between a 35%-50% sidewalled tire. The reason for this is simple. All of the vehicle dynamics research that has been done in the last 40 years has found that for a typical user on a typical road, any more sidewall than 60% simply adds a layer of unpredictability that the vehicle dynamicists have difficulty accounting for when designing a suspension. A 'high performance' car will have a smaller sidewall because it leads to higher ultimate grip levels to a point. 35% is around that point.

SO WHAT? WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL CHARACTER OF A 2002? NO ONE SAD THE DESIGN WAS MODERN OR OPTIMALSure, a smaller sidewall can lead to a harsher ride! That's obvious and is highly un-patentable. But the reason your probably have the perception that big wheels "ruin the handling characteristics" of the car is probably because rarely are big wheels the only thing changed in that car's suspension. They are typically accompanied by urethane bushings, stiffer springs, higher rate dampers, larger anti-roll bars, bigger brake packages, etc... Most of these things are 'high performance' parts that sacrifice the comfort of the ride in order to achieve a higher-ultimate grip(traction) level for the car. ULTIMATE GRIP HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ORIGINAL CHARACTER OF THE 2002

If you want to experiment and see if your assertion has significant merit, find a bone stock, well-maintained 2002.

Now find a set of 5.5" wide 15,16,17 inch wheels and put the same 165 tire but with the appropriate sidewall on them. THAT'S NOT PLUS 6. PLUS SIX REQUIRES WIDER TIRES AS WELL TO COMPENSATE FOR THE LARGER WHEEL

Now blindfold yourself and have a friend equip one of the options without you knowing which one.

Now go for a drive.

Come home, have them switch the wheels and go again for a drive.

Feel any different? YES

Possibly, but I doubt in any poorer way unless you live on a gravel road and were hooning the car. WRONG

I can provide many books on the subject if you would like further reading. The math is relatively simple, most of which is just trig. You will need very basic calculus eventually, but most is trig so anyone who went through the US math system in the last 25 years without having to repeat their math classes should be able to follow.

HTH,

Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen

Jay Swift

Media Director and Vehicle Dynamics

OSU Team Member

Global Formula Racing

SO THERE YOU GO. NO ONE SAID THAT 2002'S CANNOT BE IMPROVED UPON. AT SOME POINT, YOU RUIN THE ORIGINAL CHARACTER OF THE VEHICLE. I HAVE BUILT AND OWNED STOCK 2002'S, MODDED M10'S ALL THE WAY UP TO EVO S14'S. AT SOME POINT, THEY NO LONGER FEEL LIKE 2002'S. NOT SURE WHAT THE LIMIT IS BUT IT'S NOT 19' WHEELS.

[Swiftus]

SO THERE YOU GO. NO ONE SAID THAT 2002'S CANNOT BE IMPROVED UPON. AT SOME POINT, YOU RUIN THE ORIGINAL CHARACTER OF THE VEHICLE. I HAVE BUILT AND OWNED STOCK 2002'S, MODDED M10'S ALL THE WAY UP TO EVO S14'S. AT SOME POINT, THEY NO LONGER FEEL LIKE 2002'S. NOT SURE WHAT THE LIMIT IS BUT IT'S NOT 19' WHEELS.

Not really worth entering into an argument on the inter-webs with a person who does not have an internet identity.

Instead, here is some rally hoonage circa 1969 via Moto Mania:

[Swiftus]

I was about to say that sounds like something that GFR would write up Very true though.

We like the KISS principle at GFR, but pondering the what-ifs and the I-bet-you-coulds is always a part of the process

[Slightly Larger Roundies]

(nt)

[Slightly Larger Roundies]

My cat's breath smells like cat food. ---- Ralph Wiggum. WORD.

[staunch2002]

WHY would you do that to a Touring!?!?!?!

Ever considered that someone would do it because its just a car... his car... and all the purists in the world wouldn't stop me doing something similar or "worse" (in your eyes), just because i could.

I personally think cars are for enjoying, and nothing else.

[staunch2002]

My cat's breath smells like cat food. ---- Ralph Wiggum. WORD.

Fail... epic fail.

[Guest Anonymous]

WHY would you do that to a Touring!?!?!?!

Ever considered that someone would do it because its just a car... his car... and all the purists in the world wouldn't stop me doing something similar or "worse" (in your eyes), just because i could.

I personally think cars are for enjoying, and nothing else.

You are a grown up and you can waste your money how you wish. Simple. Of course there are cheaper cars to rice up....but your decision.

[Guest Anonymous]

SO THERE YOU GO. NO ONE SAID THAT 2002'S CANNOT BE IMPROVED UPON. AT SOME POINT, YOU RUIN THE ORIGINAL CHARACTER OF THE VEHICLE. I HAVE BUILT AND OWNED STOCK 2002'S, MODDED M10'S ALL THE WAY UP TO EVO S14'S. AT SOME POINT, THEY NO LONGER FEEL LIKE 2002'S. NOT SURE WHAT THE LIMIT IS BUT IT'S NOT 19' WHEELS.

Not really worth entering into an argument on the inter-webs with a person who does not have an internet identity.

Instead, here is some rally hoonage circa 1969 via Moto Mania:

Sounds more like an easy out because you can't support your points, but so it goes. Nice pic. No 19's required!

[Slightly Larger Roundies]

My cat's breath smells like cat food. ---- Ralph Wiggum. WORD.

Fail... epic fail.

The only EPIC FAIL is 19" rims on a touring.

[Swiftus]

Sounds more like an easy out because you can't support your points, but so it goes. Nice pic. No 19's required!

You just keep egging me on, don't you?

This Billy Goat happens to think that the grass is lovely on this side of the bridge, thank you very much.

[staunch2002]

My cat's breath smells like cat food. ---- Ralph Wiggum. WORD.

Fail... epic fail.

The only EPIC FAIL is 19" rims on a touring.

You have proven that the old saying is true... Opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one.

Trolling around this feed isn't going to change anything. Your opinion of what should be allowed to be done to a Touring, doesn't seem to carry much support here, in case you haven't noticed.

There is a big difference between sharing your thoughts on this topic, and having a dig at everyone's input.

We get it ok, you don't agree with 19s on a Touring.

[Slightly Larger Roundies]

My cat's breath smells like cat food. ---- Ralph Wiggum. WORD.

Fail... epic fail.

The only EPIC FAIL is 19" rims on a touring.

You have proven that the old saying is true... Opinions are like arseholes, everyone's got one.

Trolling around this feed isn't going to change anything. Your opinion of what should be allowed to be done to a Touring, doesn't seem to carry much support here, in case you haven't noticed.

There is a big difference between sharing your thoughts on this topic, and having a dig at everyone's input.

We get it ok, you don't agree with 19s on a Touring.

Wow guy you are a touch sensitive. If one wants to put 19s on a touring knock yourself out. and my cat's breath still smells like cat food.