engine and drivetrain '68 Brake Question

[quietglow]

Since posting my intro the other day, I've been scheming nonstop about what I need to do to get my 02 (which is on the other side of the country, just to be clear) back on the road. At this point, I am planning on taking a week in the spring to head out to California to do whatever I can to get it running well enough to ship it back to Chicago. As I understand it, transporting is vastly less costly if the car can drive onto the truck under its own power.

 

So brakes are what knocked it off the road. I've been trying to dredge up everything I can find about what I'd done to the car at the time. At the time of doing the refresh, I posted a good bit the BMW listserv, but the archives for that particular time period are currently awol. That said, I did find this:

 

http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/12566-Early-Brake-Problems

 

The timeline I described before was in error. Looks like the brake problem happened earlier than I remembered. 

 

So the car is still in the same condition I describe in that post. I didn't post there, but I checked the lines and they appeared fine at the time. 

 

If I can get the engine running okay, think the transport company will be okay with just using the emergency brake for the purposes of getting it on the truck? 

 

Once I get it back here, the problem remains (and is clearer to me now): the original MC was built to supply the original calipers with one line each, but as far as I know most 02s (and MCs) have two lines per front caliper. Switch out the calipers with newer ones? This was the problem I remember facing often with this car. Try to source parts to upgrade (at the time anyway) things that were odd to it compared to later 02s or try to keep the thing more or less original?

 

Edit:

 

And now I also found this:

 

http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/12723-Old-brake-saga-continues

 

I remember this. The brakes returned to being non-op a few days later. To me, now, that points to the problem being something other than the MC, as one of responses suggests.

Edited December 18, 2013 by quietglow

[M3M3]

use a MC from an E21 3 series.  single line system.

[BLUNT]

as a rule it may be about 200 more to ship a non running car assuming it rolls and steers. To me not worth the hassle of trying to fix it without proper tools and an area to work. Unless its something simple

[dbmw2002]

Marshall, Great tip, Booster work also? My 1600 is down for brakes right now and the local yard just got a 320 in, any year work for single line system? Just checked Auto Parts Wharehouse and can get a 320 M/C for 55 bones or an ATE for 175, have not found a 1600 M/C yet

[FB73tii]

......think the transport company will be okay with just using the emergency brake for the purposes of getting it on the truck?

 

Joe! Not recommended. You don't want this conversation:....."Joe: The brakes don't work, just use the emergency brake" "Jim: Oh, OK, no problem" "Joe: Why is the nose of my car smashed?" .."Jim:...well, when  Bob drove it on the trailer it turned out the brakes didn't work...not our fault"

 

A bit tongue in cheek, but you get the point. Look forward to hearing you get it on the road, under its own power!

[Conserv]

as a rule it may be about 200 more to ship a non running car assuming it rolls and steers. To me not worth the hassle of trying to fix it without proper tools and an area to work. Unless its something simple

+1

The number of transporters who will deal with a "non-op" car is certainly much smaller than those who transport solely "operative" cars, but why don't you get some actual shipping quotes under both scenarios? (I believe the pricing difference is often even less than $200.)

Good luck,

Steve

[quietglow]

use a MC from an E21 3 series.  single line system.

 

 

Genius. Thank you. That's exactly the sort of thing I wish I knew at the time. Experimenting was a tough thing to do at the time. I was outside of Carbondale Illinois, and any part I wanted to try had to be ordered.

 

Good information on shipping as well. I'm going to call around for quotes today. If the price difference really is that negligible I may just ship it back without going out there. I don't really have proper tools out there, so the chances of me being able to get it running and stopping are pretty slim. 

[Hans]

Back to the brakes: Assuming there is fluid in the system, there aren't many explanations for the pedal sinking. Either there is a leak somewhere - which should be obvious to the eye (rear cylinders, caliper seals, out the back of the master into the cockpit/booster); the master cylinder is shot (the fluid just passes back over the seals as they move down the bore); or system needs more effective bleeding. In the case described in those links, I 'd say it wasn't bled enough (some folks "bench bleed" a master before installation). The claim that it "cured itself" may indicate some air finally burped out of the master.

 

Now in your case, one might be tempted to convert the system to the later dual circuit spec, which is safer and parts are available at reasonable prices. But that means adding two more lines all the way to the calipers, different calipers, prob. rear cyls, etc. Do-able, but what about your experience level/time constraints? The other way is to try to recycle the single circuit system for now. Perhaps the 320 cyl will fit as suggested, Carl Nelson may know. The pushrod lengths have to be the same, I expect. Or perhaps track down a rebuild kit (assuming the bore isn't pitted).

Edited December 18, 2013 by Hans

[quietglow]

Thanks Hans. The nature of how the problem arose makes me think it wasn't a bleeding issue, at least initially. I'd been driving it for a couple of years, and the failure was traumatic in nature: I slammed on the brakes and something stopped working as it was supposed to. There could have been air in the line before, I guess, but it went very suddenly from a daily driver to limping along.

 

One thing is for certain: diagnosing a decade old problem on a car sitting 3k miles away is pain in the arse.

 

As it turns out, Carl was the guy from whom I got the replacements MC(s). I actually considered running the extra lines for the conversion at the time and decided I didn't have either the time or the place to do the work properly (no garage). I actually ended up buying a car to replace it as my daily driver.

 

Edit: actually I just re-read my description from '99 and realize you might be right. The original MC may have indeed failed, and then the bleeding may have become an issue when I did the replacement. I agree that there aren't really that many variables. Either the MC was shot (unlikely on replacement #2), fluid was escaping somewhere (I would have noticed at least the drop in level in the reservoir), or there was air in the system.

Edited December 18, 2013 by quietglow

[Hans]

Were the two links to your post or someone else's experience? If yours, then I would doubt you had two bad out of box MCs. So I'd be looking at bleeding. I think with a new MC you're better to do some old fashioned pedal pumping, even if you have a pressure bleeder. Be prepared to run thru half a bottle. For the moment, I'd focus on getting the single circuit system working in order to move the car. So if the MC is new, then a good bleeding might do it.

[Mike Self]

Did you post your car's VIN?  The early '68s were distinctly different from the later ones, especially when it comes to brakes.  Knowing the VIN--and any modifications done to the car's braking system would help us figure out what you have, and what you need to get the brakes functioning again...

 

Glad to see you're gonna bring your '68 back to life; those early cars are few and far between (fewer than 2500 US spect 2002s were sold in that model year, which only lasted from April to September 1968).

 

mike

[dbmw2002]

Heres my guess, if car was daily driven for 3 years and you slam on brakes and loose it, something blew, new master? doubt it, bleeding prob, doubt it, a seal on a slave or caliper went south and you will find a leak, the links I read said it healed itself, we need more info on that as we all would love a o2 thats heals itself 

[quietglow]

So I've gotten quotes and if the shipper handles in-op cars, the additional cost for in-op is negligible as Blunt and others suggested (about $120). So I am not going to bother trying to get the brakes functional before shipping. I will likely fly out there next month to take some photos and see how it fared its years in the barn. I always pull up the cover and say hi when I'm out there, but it's been years since I've pushed it out into daylight. Fingers crossed.

 

@mike I don't have access to the VIN here -- will get it from my parents next week. And yes, the brakes are very different from the rest of the 02s, being much closer to 1600 brakes (i.e. single line calipers up front). I also remember there being differences in these early cars from car to car. I'm shooting to have it shipped here in the spring, and then I'll start the process of diagnosing the problem and coming up with a plan to fix.

 

@dbmw2002 This is all old memory, of course, but I think I ruled that out as the fluid level wasn't dropping. But honestly, I'm counting on starting from zero with the brake system. As it is, the decade+ of sitting didn't do any good for any of the hydraulics, I'm sure.

[Hans]

I'd at least get the handbrake working and make a big sign to stick on the dash.

If memory serves - and this goes back a lonnng way, my euro 1600-2 had a one pipe master on the pedal box and a distribution cylinder on the booster. Is that your set-up?

[quietglow]

Yeah, good plan on the sign.

 

And now this is a test of my memory as well, but: mine had the same setup as my 76 except the calipers were one line each. So the MC had two fewer holes in it. I vaguely remember telling Carl Nelson that mine was NOT the setup you describe, because for that run of the 02 it might have been either setup.