engine and drivetrain Schnitzer Head

[Conserv]

If assembled, dynoed engines have asking prices $23K to $27K -- and aren't flying off the shelf -- I'd guesstimate a complete not-yet-assembled engine is in the $15K to $18K range, but more likely towards the bottom end of that range. (I'd be shocked if someone wanting $23K would turn down $20K for a motor they wish to sell.) If your decision hinges partly on the value, list the complete engine on eBay (U.S. and/or German) with a reserve price that would make you happy if it were achieved. But your opening price (as opposed to your reserve) has to be an attractive number or you won't get that crucial first bid.

Good luck with your decision: great car and great engine!

Steve

Edited February 26, 2014 by Conserv

[markmac]

If assembled, dynoed engines have asking prices $23K to $27K -- and aren't flying off the shelf -- I'd guesstimate a complete not-yet-assembled engine is in the $15K to $18K range, but more likely towards the bottom end of that range. (I'd be shocked if someone wanting $23K would turn down $20K for a motor they wish to sell.) If your decision hinges partly on the value, list the complete engine on eBay (U.S. and/or German) with a reserve price that would make you happy if it were achieved. But you're opening price (as opposed to your reserve) has to be an attractive number or you won't get that crucial first bid.

Good luck with your decision: great car and great engine!

Steve

+1 on what Steve said.  I would add this, if you have to sell because you need the cash/income, as suggested probably the best way to go.  Odds are you will be packing it in a big box and sending it along to Europe.  Actually, having it a part is probably better since it will be easy for someone to see what is really there (and not there).  As I suggested there is a fair amount of maching that needs to be done to a new head to make it work.  Schnitzer sold them this way because they didn't know specifically how the customer was going to run the motor (canted as in a 2oo2 or straight up and down as in an F2 car or other Road Race vehicle), so there are quite a few un-machined bosses, porting etc.,  If you decide to keep it, Henry Lawrence (Power Plant in NC) recently did a Schnitzer motor for a friend of mine (on injection) so he is one of the few that knows his way around this motor.  Would be incredibly fun in your 2oo2.

 

http://www.racingpowerplant.com/index.htm

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Guest jeeperjack]

reading  posts on this head reference to machine work needing to be done. this head is ready to have valves and cams installed. john was starting to build when he passed.  so i need knowledge that you have. i dont see any thing that needs to be done. i have been a diesel machanic for almost 50 years. j

[markmac]

You can do research yourself with your time or maybe confer with Henry Lawrence as I suggested, sorry to say I just don't have the time at the moment.  All the head kits came with valves, guides and seats.

 

-Have the manifolds been port matched to the head?  I didn't see the manifolds or the intake ports so I couldn't say.  If they haven't then they need to be.

-Distributor.  What kind of distributor is it going to run?  Has the drive been set up for that and the housing been adapted to the back of the cam carrier?  Usually this is done off the intake cam.  Maybe he took care of that and  it just wasn't in the image.

-Oiling.  How does the oil return from the cam carrier to the head?  And, from the head back to the block?  Certian machining needs to be done to allow that to happen.  Without it done properly your engine has a life expectancy of about 2 minutes.

-Race prep block, if it hasn't been.

-If you think the engine will ever go north of 8000rpm, toss the conrods in the trash (or sell them to someone building a street motor).  Since these motors can easily spin up over 9000rpm, old used up conrods are a weak spot (and prone to let go).

 

Did I say it already?  Talk to Henry.  Good luck with your project

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

Edited February 27, 2014 by markmac

[LarsAlpina]

Isn't that the movement that basically spawned the s14 and later the m42/44? 

 

Nope. S14 derived from BMW`s own factory 16V race engine M12. Take a close look at construction of Schnitzer 20-4 and BMW M12 and you´ll see. M42/44 is something completely different and no longer related to M10 in any way.

 

Regards, Lars.

[LarsAlpina]

Got my answer back from Schnitzer:

 

____________________________________

 

Dear Mr. Tyler,

 

First we would like to thank you very much for your inquiry and your interest in AC Schnitzer 's range of products.

 

We would like to inform you that our product range is distributed in the USA through:

 

AC Schnitzer USA

German Tuning Corporation

1711 McGaw Avenue

Irvine, CA 92614

 

Contact Person: Andreas Hartmann

 

ph:  949.863.0015

fax: 949.863.1944

cell: 949.394.5860

 

e-mail: andreas@acschnitzer-us.com

Internet:  www.acschnitzer-us.com

 

Our products for the BMW 2002 are no longer available and we are not planning to produce any, as the worldwide demand is very low due to the small amount of vehicles that is left. Please understand that we have to produce larger quantities to fulfill our high quality standards, which would not make sense for the specific vehicle.

 

Best regards

 

Michael Drawz

Export Sales

 

I think you didn´t understand what Mark was trying to tell you. It´s useless to contact AC Schnitzer concerning race parts or old parts from the 70s. AC Schnitzer is NOT THE SAME as Schnitzer Motorsport.

 

AC Schnitzer is part of Kohl Automobile in Aachen and they settled an agreement with Schnitzer Motorsport/Team Schnitzer in 1987 that allowed them to use the name Schnitzer further on for the sale of modded street cars and modding parts for street cars.

 

Schnitzer Motorsport is located in Freilassing, Bavaria. From the 60s on brothers Herbert and Josef started with racing and prepping own race cars (mostly but not only BMW). The good results led to other people asking them to prep their cars, too and with that company Team Schnitzer/Schnitzer Motorsport was founded. With the death of Josef Schnitzer in a car accident 1978 their stepbrother Charly Lamm got more involved into the company. Those are the ones to send an inquiry to if you want to get any substantial answers, but for the moment their website is on renewal and you can only reach a start page.

 

And Schnitzer Motorsport is definitely working on a reproduction of 20-4 cylinder heads and other parts, Mark is right on that. They already got back their original molds from the Bremen area where those were located for some years within the very (and I do really mean VERY, VERY, VERY) impressive parts storage of a certain guy.

Already some 4 or 5 years ago when I spoke to H. Waldherr (led the engine development at Schnitzer for long years FWIK but today no longer a Schnitzer employee I think) Schnitzer had thoughts in their minds concerning a repro project. At that time they still feared the high costs connected with it and weren´t sure if there would be a market big enough - therefor they didn´t start anything concrete.

Something or someone must have made them change their minds meanwhile...

 

Regards, Lars.

Edited February 27, 2014 by LarsAlpina

[LarsAlpina]

Bottom end of this one looks like maybe a Turbo bottom end, hard to tell from pics for sure.

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

 

No oil return on the block, no turbo. Looks more S14 to me. And take a second glance at the crankshaft maybe.

 

Regards, Lars.

Edited February 27, 2014 by LarsAlpina

[Guest jeeperjack]

Mark thanks for info. at my age i think that we will just keep the hot rod engine that is in the car. and make someone the new owner of all the parts we have.

[Conserv]

Mark thanks for info. at my age i think that we will just keep the hot rod engine that is in the car. and make someone the new owner of all the parts we have.

I believe that is a sound idea: the price someone will pay for these engine components virtually ensures they will either be assembled into an engine near term or stored carefully and protectively.

Others on this forum know far more than I on this subject, but I strongly suspect these components are more valuable in Germany than in the U.S. On the other hand, selling them abroad would place a measurable burden on you in the form of shipping heavy, valuable, and -- in some ways -- fragile parts overseas.

Best of luck with your plan!

Regards,

Steve

[markmac]

It is a PIA to ship stuff like this, you just need to understand what needs to be done and how to do it.....and then build that cost into the final sales price.  Have a crate built for it or build it yourself and contact a shipper.  I shipped a complete engine to Japan and Schnitzer #117 to Sweden.  Insure the Sh$t out of it of course.

 

You won't  have trouble selling.  Take lots of pictures of your gear from various angles with a good quality digital camera.  A picture is worth a thousand words as they say.  Good luck with your sale.  If I had the dough I would buy it all from you.  I regretted selling my #117 head.....unfortunately needed the money.

 

www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Guest jeeperjack]

just for kicks and giggles  we were looking at the box the head was shipped in then saw the date may 29 1990 its been in this shop all safe and sound

[Guest jeeperjack]

We have decided to sell all the parts so if anyone is interested let us know.  Now on a different track does anyone know if anyone offers the brackets for rear disc or do i just need to fab them. i have all the rest of the parts.

Edited March 2, 2014 by jeeperjack

[Kidasters]

You are killing me.

 

The whole reason I kept the pictures was because I said "If ever the opportunity comes up".  

 

At the same time, reality sets in.  It would take a lot of money to get this back together.  There was once one guy in Houston that I would want to do this work, and he died a few years ago (we miss you Mike Perkins).   On top of that - I have the last cylinder head that he worked on before he died - an E12 head that he set up perfectly with Dr. Schrick's camshaft.  

 

I'm going to have to pass.  Unbelievable.

 

On the rear disc conversion - you read this, right?

 

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/_/technical-articles/brakes/conversion-to-vw-disk-brakes-r113

 

you can make your own bracket or call IE and see if they will sell you just the bracket?  Sorry - IE is Ireland Engineering.

 

http://www.iemotorsport.com/

 

Good Luck.

 

Ken

Edited March 2, 2014 by Kidasters

[LarsAlpina]

Well,

 

different from Ken I would think it is inevitable first that you specify which kind of rear disc brake system (or parts of it) you do already have. Besides the more modern conversion kits he linked you to there were already such kits in the original days. Based on the fact that you own an original Schnitzer 20-4 head, too, and that you said parts have all been collected already some years ago you might possibly own an old original race setup with those nowadays horribly expensive Porsche calipers also. Needed brackets differ depending on the concrete rear disc brake system you plan to use. 

 

Please specify your parts or post some pictures if you might not be sure maybe.

 

Regards, Lars.

Edited March 2, 2014 by LarsAlpina

[Kidasters]

Good point Lars.  My bad - I assumed it was the VW setup.