engine and drivetrain Help! Bad Points, Knocks, Won't Start And More!

[Leitrum]

So up until I started tinkering this morning, everything was fine. Yet, it wasn't running perfect so I couldn't help myself. I've had a couple of consistent issues I was trying to solve: 

 

- Poor mpg (15-18?)

- Running very rich (sooty exhaust, fuel smell around the car while running and after shutdown, wet and black spark plugs)

- occasional misfire at any rpm, though it runs and pulls strong (it did anyway)

 

I rebuilt the carb when I first got it and that seemed to really help the car run better in general, but after cleaning everything it also revealed a fuel leak from that shows up as yellow stains on the manifold. I haven't been able to resolve this no matter what I tighten and check. So this morning I set out to at least fix the rich fuel issue after yesterday spraying carb cleaner around the carb at idle and having it nearly die. First thing to note: I can't screw in the main idle jet very hard or it will run very poorly or die so that is unscrewed a 1/4 turn from snug. I proceeded to tighten a few things down and reset the fuel mixture to see if I could get it leaner. 

 

 

And for some reason before I started it up to see if that made a difference, I decided to adjust a few other things (why have I not learned one thing at a time?). I had never oiled the felt pad in the distributor so I did that. I also noticed some corrosion/accumulation on the points so I swapped those out with a set that came with the car that looked like they were in better shape. Unfortunately I didn't take the time to really learn about dwell and didn't set it up right. When I turned it over and started, it sounded rough, but when I got out of the car to listen, I could hear it actually knocking significantly. I jumped back in and shut it off. Thinking it was the points, I put the old ones back on and tried to set them up correctly, but couldn't get it it start. I pulled the plugs and they were 100% black and wet now. Swapped them with a good set I had in the garage. Still won't start. Starting to check other things at this point and worry a bit more. Drained the oil, no metal of any sort, but a VERY strong smell of fuel, very black and a little thinner than it should be. 

 

At this point, I'm not sure what I need to check next. I was thinking I would eliminate the possibility of points being the problem and get a pertronix since it was on the list anyway, but with my dizzy being an odd one from a porsche, I also thought of just getting the IE Tii dizzy. If that doesn't solve it, what's the next recommended step? Do I go as far as pulling the head to inspect things? Do I refill the oil with fresh and do a compression test? I'm leary that there is some bottom end damage due to how much fuel there seems to be in the oil possibly washing the cylinder walls, though it still turns over strong. 

 

For what it's worth, I also adjusted the valves last weekend and it made for a happier engine to be sure. They were all very tight.  

 

 

Here's the plugs when I pulled them last week. 

 

 

 

[Simeon]

OK, lots going on here.

I don't think you need to do anything too drastic like pull the head, we just need to go back to square one with the points, timing and ignition in general.

You say you don't understand dwell - how did you set the points gap? Did you end up rotating the distributor when you did this. Technically speaking you need to reset the timing with a timing light when you adjust the points. To me it sounds like your timing is way out.

Any chance that you got the distributor cap back on the wrong way? Did you take the plug leads off and put them back in the wrong order?

There is a lot to rule out before we start blaming the engine and pulling heads etc.

[DRedman]

If you haven't messed with the timing then get new points, rotor and cap and adjust points correctly.  Timing should not be off enough to prevent starting.  If the carb is not new the carb leak may be fuel leaking from a worn throttle bushing which could also cause a vacuum leak.  The accelerator linkage is not installed correctly(offset) and may be forcing the bushing leak issue?  You need to get the correct linkage rod with a right angle bend at the carb end and a new carb U joint and mount it 180deg from the picture. 

['76mintgrün'02]

A friend once told me, "if you suspect fuel issues, check the ignition system.  then if you are pretty sure it is the fuel system, double check the ignition."  Ignition first, with respect to tuning, as a general rule.  

 

Setting points without a dwell meter is sort of a shot in the dark.  If you are installing/adjusting used points, the feeler gauge is reading the highest spot on the two surfaces, not the actual gap.  New points are especially important to get it set up correctly without the use of a dwell meter.  (I purchased a timing light with a dwell meter and tach built in and have really enjoyed it).  While you should be able to get it to 'run' with a match book cover as a feeler gauge to set the points (crude example), eventually you will want to be able to measure the dwell accurately, so new tool(s) may be required.  

 

as a side note, in a moment of desperation I purchased a set of Bosch points at NAPA for $14... the same set was $3 from Blunt.  The timing light I bought online was $100, $200 through NAPA.  It does pay to shop around, if you can afford the time.

[Leitrum]

Okay, had a couple of 18 hour days at work and am only now getting back into things. Responding to comments in order: 

 

 

OK, lots going on here.

I don't think you need to do anything too drastic like pull the head, we just need to go back to square one with the points, timing and ignition in general.

You say you don't understand dwell - how did you set the points gap? Did you end up rotating the distributor when you did this. Technically speaking you need to reset the timing with a timing light when you adjust the points. To me it sounds like your timing is way out.

Any chance that you got the distributor cap back on the wrong way? Did you take the plug leads off and put them back in the wrong order?

There is a lot to rule out before we start blaming the engine and pulling heads etc.

 

So, in full disclosure, I didn't set the gap correctly the first time I turned it over after I messed with it, not realizing how vital that is. In retrospect, possibly my biggest mistake on an engine to date. I had it close, as in, the pad was touching the flat spot on the dizzy shaft, but let's assume that it was WAY off for now. When I turned it over per my original post, it made a terrible racket, and we're not talking like a little ping. I've had rod knock before on another engine. It was like that. 

 

Distributor cap won't go on any way other than the way it was originally or I'd have to force it due to how the wires are bound together. 

 

 

 

If you haven't messed with the timing then get new points, rotor and cap and adjust points correctly.  Timing should not be off enough to prevent starting.  If the carb is not new the carb leak may be fuel leaking from a worn throttle bushing which could also cause a vacuum leak.  The accelerator linkage is not installed correctly(offset) and may be forcing the bushing leak issue?  You need to get the correct linkage rod with a right angle bend at the carb end and a new carb U joint and mount it 180deg from the picture. 

 

I did set the timing previously on several occasions, pretty much after any change I made to the engine in the hopes I could resolve the miss that was occurring. Carb was rebuilt recently, but as a whole it's not new and it definitely has a vacuum leak somewhere. I'm suspecting that it may have something to do with the flatness of the various pieces that have seals (with the exception of the uppermost seal, that one seems fine). Wouldn't a vacuum leak cause it to run lean though, not rich? I only have the fuel turned out 1 1/2 from all the way in...

 

A friend once told me, "if you suspect fuel issues, check the ignition system.  then if you are pretty sure it is the fuel system, double check the ignition."  Ignition first, with respect to tuning, as a general rule.  

 

Setting points without a dwell meter is sort of a shot in the dark.  If you are installing/adjusting used points, the feeler gauge is reading the highest spot on the two surfaces, not the actual gap.  New points are especially important to get it set up correctly without the use of a dwell meter.  (I purchased a timing light with a dwell meter and tach built in and have really enjoyed it).  While you should be able to get it to 'run' with a match book cover as a feeler gauge to set the points (crude example), eventually you will want to be able to measure the dwell accurately, so new tool(s) may be required.  

 

as a side note, in a moment of desperation I purchased a set of Bosch points at NAPA for $14... the same set was $3 from Blunt.  The timing light I bought online was $100, $200 through NAPA.  It does pay to shop around, if you can afford the time.

 

 

I don't have a dwell meter, but I do have feeler gauges as well as an extra set of points. I started looking for a meter today, but I think I'll end up just switching to something electric per my original post. Seems like money better spent considering how much vertical play my dizzy has anyway (approx. 1/4" up and down and quite a bit side to side- though that may be normal, it's new to me as a diesel guy). 

 

 

And then there's what I learned this evening. I picked up fresh oil and a filter on my way home since I drained everything over the weekend to inspect for metal, etc.. After getting the engine refilled, I grabbed the better of the two sets of points I have, filed them so I could more accurately use a feeler gauge and set them up at .016. Low and behold, it started! But...not in the way that I had hoped. It had a consistent knock. I let it idle long enough to quickly reset the timing, but that didn't do anything significant. Oh, and my "O" light is on now. So there's that. 

 

My big question is this: could having the dwell set totally wrong cause pre-ignition to totally FUBAR everything? I'm feeling like this is suddenly bottom end issues. I'm guessing next steps are probably compression tests, but that won't help the low oil light that's now on. I have everything I need to pull the engine out and do a quick and partial tear down, but I'm leary of it if I don't have to. Although, to be honest, pulling the engine out to drop the oil pain looks easier than trying to do it in situ. Thoughts? I'm all ears. Also, if anyone is in Portland, I'd love to have someone more experienced in '02's take a listen! Thanks for all your comments and help thus far! Was hoping this could be a good DD for a few months so hopefully this doesn't turn into a full blown rebuild project, I already have one of those! 

 

[Simeon]

Not sure you can set dwell so badly it will damage the engine, it still seems very coincidental that this engine 'damage' occurred when working on the ignition. Engines can make all kinds of odd noises when you are igniting (or not igniting ) the fuel at the wrong part of their cycle. The oil light could be a function of an artificially low idle (caused by the ignition) - there is a long recent thread on the subject. 

 

Sure you can do compression tests and other checks but I would still baseline the ignition and its timing first.  TDC the engine on No 1 cylinder - both valves closed, take the distributor cap off and check the position of the rotor. This should be roughly aligned with where the No 1 plugs wire fits to the cap, check this actually goes to No 1 and then check the order in rotation and firing sequence (1, 3, 4, 2 as it says on the valve cover). Assuming that you have set the points gap set at least with feeler gauges, advance the distributor until the points just open

 (use a test lamp). You should be good enough to start the engine at this point. Try starting now and then time using a timing light (1400rpm, vac pipe disconnected and plugged, flywheel ball in the hole). 

 

Fault finding these things are tricky when there is several things going on. Being methodical and going over your work so that you can rule things out with certainty. Lots of things can screw you up when you make assumptions as to what is thought to be good. After 25 years of wrenching on old cars I have learned not to make assumptions and even brand new parts can fail and stupid things can be done (ask me how I know).  

[Stevenc22]

You could swap in a electronic ignition so that you dont have to worry about points and dwell meters ect.

 

http://www.hot-spark.com/1-Bosch-Distributors.htm

 

 

What coil are you running?

Edited July 9, 2014 by Stevenc22

[73colorado02]

You also say you recently adjusted your valves.  Are you sure there all correct and you dont have a losve rocker making noise?  Obviously though like everyone else has said is you need to comfirm your ignition timing first then go from there if it still knocks.

Edited July 9, 2014 by 73colorado02

[Arizona02]

Re: Rod Knock, think the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump got stuck open from some crud that passed threw the pump screen or the spring is too weak / broken.

  The point gap can be in the ballpark and still start and run fine.  Bearing grease to Lube the dist lobes where the points plastic rubbing block rides against to ensure gap wont decrease.

[Leitrum]

You could swap in a electronic ignition so that you dont have to worry about points and dwell meters ect.

 

http://www.hot-spark.com/1-Bosch-Distributors.htm

 

 

What coil are you running?

 

Done and done. Bought the IE dizzy to eliminate points, as well as all the other benefits from electronic. Mine had a lot of play anyway, so...

 

After starting up with the new dizzy and quickly adjusting timing to get it in the correct range (z ball still bounces around like crazy), I found that the idle is still very rough. Oh, and the low oil light is still on so I have only kept it running long enough to check/adjust these things before shutting back down.

 

Running a blue coil, can't say how new it is though as the label is a little worn. Everything in the engine bay looks a little like that though, even things I know to be from the previous owner-- so that doesn't really say much on the age of things. 

 

Not sure you can set dwell so badly it will damage the engine, it still seems very coincidental that this engine 'damage' occurred when working on the ignition. Engines can make all kinds of odd noises when you are igniting (or not igniting ) the fuel at the wrong part of their cycle. The oil light could be a function of an artificially low idle (caused by the ignition) - there is a long recent thread on the subject. 

 

Sure you can do compression tests and other checks but I would still baseline the ignition and its timing first.  TDC the engine on No 1 cylinder - both valves closed, take the distributor cap off and check the position of the rotor. This should be roughly aligned with where the No 1 plugs wire fits to the cap, check this actually goes to No 1 and then check the order in rotation and firing sequence (1, 3, 4, 2 as it says on the valve cover). Assuming that you have set the points gap set at least with feeler gauges, advance the distributor until the points just open

 (use a test lamp). You should be good enough to start the engine at this point. Try starting now and then time using a timing light (1400rpm, vac pipe disconnected and plugged, flywheel ball in the hole). 

 

Fault finding these things are tricky when there is several things going on. Being methodical and going over your work so that you can rule things out with certainty. Lots of things can screw you up when you make assumptions as to what is thought to be good. After 25 years of wrenching on old cars I have learned not to make assumptions and even brand new parts can fail and stupid things can be done (ask me how I know).  

 

I agree with you in that it does seem coincidental. However, no matter what I've done, the low oil pressure light and rough idle have not changed much. I didn't mention as it kind of slipped my mind; every once in a while when I would start up, it would start running all out of whack and the low oil light would turn on. If I shut it down and start it back up, it would always seem to sort itself out. Total mystery to me. 

 

 

You also say you recently adjusted your valves.  Are you sure there all correct and you dont have a losve rocker making noise?  Obviously though like everyone else has said is you need to comfirm your ignition timing first then go from there if it still knocks.

 

I checked the valves and they're still good. On the positive side, when I swapped the new IE dizzy in, the knock went away. So that's a huge relief that it's potentially not something disastrous. 

 

 

Re: Rod Knock, think the oil pressure relief valve in the oil pump got stuck open from some crud that passed threw the pump screen or the spring is too weak / broken.

  The point gap can be in the ballpark and still start and run fine.  Bearing grease to Lube the dist lobes where the points plastic rubbing block rides against to ensure gap wont decrease.

 

This is all quite possible and barring the more extreme problems of a bearing issue, it's where I was leaning.

 

Everything you mentioned seemed like a little bit of a pain to get into, in part because I'm still new to these engines...So fast forward a couple of weeks of work travel and other interruptions and I happened to find a supposedly running spare engine someone was selling in a nearby town for next to nothing. Since I have the space and tools, I figure why not just swap this one in and do a little work on mine since I was already certain i was burning a little oil by the condition of the plugs always black and wet. What I discovered when I did pull mine was that I'm definitely leaking oil through the valve guides (most of #2 exhaust was coated) and I could  probably use at least a head rebuild. On the up side, now I get to play with building things up a little.

 

Bad photo, and several days after I pulled things apart, but you can still see where things are oily.

 

 

I also did end up picking the spare up last weekend from a younger owner who decided to do an M42 swap because he wanted more power. Not in perfect shape, but good enough after a little cleaning and swapping over of some of my original engine pieces. If nothing else, it was worth the purchase price from the Stahl header he threw in (arguably better than my '76 blocked off smog manifold). Now if I could only get the trans aligned, I could see what kind of shape it's really in and hopefully get back to driving...

[Leitrum]

What terrible luck I'm having with cars this year. "New" engine was swapped in, with a number of external parts off my old block such as intake, carb, exhaust manifold and including my new IE Tii dizzy. Took a couple of days to wrestle everything back into place and mate it up with the tranny (first time is always the hardest I presume). Hooked everything back up and turned it over. Starter zinged to life, but didn't start. Not overly surprised. Re-checked the timing and tried a few things, such as setting it at 180 (it backfired through the carb as expected) and turning it in 10-20 deg increments in both directions. Ultimately, I set the rotor at #1 piston while the OT bar was lined up in the hole and even verified by pulling off the valve cover and checking that the cam gear was also lined up. Everything looked good.

 

Still nothing. Checked spark from the blue coil, that worked. Checked spark through plug wires with a spare plug. Those work too. Pulled the plugs and checked the gap, fixed any that weren't at .026. Still nothing. I can see fuel getting dumped into the carb from the accelerator pump jet when I turn the throttle linkage manually and can see the butterflies move when I hit the pedal. 

 

I'm at a loss now and hate the idea of towing it somewhere for a more accomplished hand, but it may come to that. I know there is an oil leak on the lower timing chain cover, but that doesn't seem like it would keep it from starting. I also haven't put coolant in yet in case I need to pull everything back apart, but was only planning on letting it run long enough to verify it works. And again, that doesn't seem like it would keep from starting. 

 

Since I'm not sure what else to check, here's a video. When I'm cranking it and it picks up speed, that's when I floor it. When I don't, it just sounds like it's cranking, no other catches, misses or anything else. Please help if anyone has thoughts on this! 

 

IMG_2607.MOV

 

 

 

[Simeon]

The other thing you need after fuel and spark is compression. Have you compression tested your 'new' engine? You can see fuel in the manifold - might be worth dumping a swig of petrol straight into the primary (usually a good move for a hard start). The other thing to bare in mind is that a visible spark outside of the engine can be suppressed under the compression of the engine. Got the right combination of coil and ballast resistance? 

 

Have you checked the pertronix in the IE distributor? Where are you powering this from? If directly from the coil terminals then check what the running voltage would be (if it is dropped by a ballast resistance then the lower voltage does not always work with these pertronix type ignitions). 

[Leitrum]

The other thing you need after fuel and spark is compression. Have you compression tested your 'new' engine? You can see fuel in the manifold - might be worth dumping a swig of petrol straight into the primary (usually a good move for a hard start). The other thing to bare in mind is that a visible spark outside of the engine can be suppressed under the compression of the engine. Got the right combination of coil and ballast resistance?

Have you checked the pertronix in the IE distributor? Where are you powering this from? If directly from the coil terminals then check what the running voltage would be (if it is dropped by a ballast resistance then the lower voltage does not always work with these pertronix type ignitions).

All good questions! After everything I went through yesterday trying to start, i began to think about compression as well since there really isn't much more to these things. I haven't checked it yet, but it was high on my list of things to do next. If I can sneak into the garage tonight I'll test it, but it was a long weekend in there and my lady is a little unhappy with me! Fuel is definitely getting in, I can see it from the accelerator pump jet and the plugs were a little wet when I pulled them to check spark again. I'm sure I probably have a vacuum leak at the base of the carb, but I didn't think that would stop it from running as it never did before.

Haven't checked voltage yet and don't have a ballast. I'm running a blue coil so I was under the impression I didn't need one. I'll check voltage to the dizzy tonight if i can. The dizzy itself is brand new, worked with the old engine (as well as it could run anyway), and has spark to all plugs now, so I haven't dug into it too much.

At this point, I could've had my original block and head off and into a shop for clean up and machining, I wonder if I'm not better off doing that and cutting my losses on this thing pretty soon... Either way it ends up, at least I got a few good spare parts out of it.

Thanks for the help on this persistent problem of mine!

[Leitrum]

The other thing you need after fuel and spark is compression. Have you compression tested your 'new' engine?

 

 

Well, I've tested it now and I feel both better and worse about things. Better, because I can feel more confident that I wasn't missing something in all the meticulous steps I was taking to problem solve this and in all likelihood I eventually had everything right. Worse because I have no compression, as in, almost none. I know you never get a good test when it's a cold engine, but they should still show something. Cylinders 1 and 2 measured between 0 and 5, cylinders 3 and 4 only measured around 35 psi. I tested them several times, reinstalling the tester to be sure I wasn't getting a false reading. I even tested the gauge with compressed air to make sure it functioned properly. What would cause such a catastrophic compression failure? Could be a head gasket leak I suppose, since it hasn't run yet and there's no coolant so I wouldn't have any easily visible signs. Or hell, maybe there's a hole in one or multiple pistons!    At least I get a new alternator, Stahl header and major "just in case" parts like a spare block, head, etc. out of this whole debacle! 

 

So that's that for the spare engine for now, guess I'm back to repairing my original. I've started inspecting the internals of that one and looks like I'll have some top and bottom end work to do. I pulled one cap and I can already tell that I'll need to either steal the crank from the spare or have mine machined since there's a little bit of a ridge on the rod journal. But that's for another thread. Thanks to all who contributed thus far, at the very least my knowledge of the ignition system between all the forum searching I've done and this thread has improved exponentially. 

[GoFaSSter]

When I burnt my head gasket it did exactly that, hardly any compression on 3 and 4. It burnt through the thin web between the two cylinders.