tires and wheels 13 Inch Revelation

[Simeon]

It appears that F1 regulations require 13" diameter rims front and rear.  The designers don't get to choose what might be faster.  The maximum tire diameter is also specified and I imagine that the tires are designed to that limit. 

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/5277/fia.html

 

With larger rims one could use larger brake discs, which I expect would be advantageous, but of course these are also limited.  No ABS is also a signicant limitation, no matter how skilled the driver he or she can't control each wheel independently. 

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/5261/

 

I don't know what the reasons for these size limits are, I would think that perfomance could be gained by running larger rims and brakes.  Of course comparing what is desireable in an F1 car to any road car is fairly silly in any case. 

 

 

It appears that F1 regulations require 13" diameter rims front and rear.  The designers don't get to choose what might be faster.  The maximum tire diameter is also specified and I imagine that the tires are designed to that limit. 

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/5277/fia.html

 

With larger rims one could use larger brake discs, which I expect would be advantageous, but of course these are also limited.  No ABS is also a signicant limitation, no matter how skilled the driver he or she can't control each wheel independently. 

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/technical_regulations/5261/

 

I don't know what the reasons for these size limits are, I would think that perfomance could be gained by running larger rims and brakes.  Of course comparing what is desireable in an F1 car to any road car is fairly silly in any case. 

 

Don't they have inboard brakes? (I could be wrong)

[Slavs]

I would stick with 13" wheels since the car was engineered for them, and in my opinion, they are the only size which looks to scale on an 02. They are the lightest when comparing like for like, and the car will accelerate faster. Most of the race prep 02s I've seen use 205/60 x 13 rubber. As noted earlier, the light vs. heavy steering feel is more due to tire / rim fitment. 185/70 x 13s will feel light and springy on 13 x 5.5 wheels, but the same size tire will feel sluggish and heavy on a 4 1/2" x 13 wheel.

 

I've used this pic to highlight my point. This car looks to be a replica of a period correct 02 raced by Nikki Lauda. It appears to be wearing 205/60 x 13" slippers or something close.

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/michaelturnerphotography/13805613485

[Oldtimerfahrer]

I would agree with Slavs, the 13s are the best choice though there really only are two choices left. The Yoko A021R (now apparently to be discontinued or at least no longer with street legal markings) and the Avon's. Take a pair of rims with approximately the right offsets from an e21 or e30 and you will see the difference. I still have an old pair of Toyo's, which are ok when dry and the Yoko A021Rs mounted on identical Cosmic 5.5x13 wheels. Its easy to feel the difference between the tires even on the same rims. The 14s and 15s are heavier and more nervous, I have not tried them in the rain but the result should be pretty horrendous. There have been a few reviews testing low profile tires in slaloms on wet courses with vintage cars. The results showed that with a relatively standard suspension setup, the vintage 70 or 80 series tires performed (much) better.  

http://youngtimerrally.lv/rally-talsi-2015/#!gallery/0/

[Conserv]

...The results showed that with a relatively standard suspension setup, the vintage 70 or 80 series tires performed (much) better.

http://youngtimerrally.lv/rally-talsi-2015/#!gallery/0/

So why does every one pretend the 165HR13 XAS does not exist? It does. It has been continuously available since before the first 1600-2 rolled off the assembly line, it now uses modern rubber compounds, albeit molded in the original molds, in France, it's not bad in the rain, IT MAKES AN '02 HANDLE AND FEEL THE WAY THE ENGINEERS DESIGNED AN '02 TO HANDLE AND FEEL, and there is ABSOLUTELY NO TIRE that looks as quintessentially '02 as a 165HR13 XAS!

Regards,

Steve

Edited May 28, 2015 by Conserv

['76mintgrün'02]

So why does every one pretend the 165HR13 XAS does not exist?

 

Because they cost $258 each? 

[Conserv]

Because they cost $258 each?

Yes -- and most long-time owners know that -- but to pretend, in a thread about available 13" tires, that the quintessential original '02 tire no longer exists puts the thread participants in the position of deciding for other owners -- essentially new '02 owners -- what they can and cannot afford, what they should and should not spend their money on. Let them have the facts so they can decide for themselves, in light of how they use their '02's.

For many of us who drive our '02s under 4,000 miles a year, a set of XAS's lasts 10 years, when you probably change them due to age anyway. $1,000 for a set of tires that last 10 years, and retains a piece of the car's original appearance, is not the stupidest money I've ever blown!

Regards,

Steve

Edited May 28, 2015 by Conserv

['76mintgrün'02]

I am sorry for stating the obvious.

Their availability/cost has been discussed here MANY times.

The price is why I pretend they do not exist.

[markmac]

The XAS' currently manufactured I believe only come in the "FF" compound which is a super soft competition compound.  They look great, no doubt about it.  I wouldn't say how many miles you can expect to get out of them, but it won't be a lot.  Vredstein is making a classic tire (s) in some 13" sizes that look pretty darn good as well.

 

http://www.alpinabmw2002.com

[gaius]

i need 5 tires that would be 1,250 plus tax, way out of my comfort zone. so for me 258 dollar tires are non existent.

[Conserv]

The XAS' currently manufactured I believe only come in the "FF" compound which is a super soft competition compound.  They look great, no doubt about it.  I wouldn't say how many miles you can expect to get out of them, but it won't be a lot.  Vredstein is making a classic tire (s) in some 13" sizes that look pretty darn good as well.

 

http://www.alpinabmw2002.com

Mark,

The FF compound was used back in the day, and I'm confident the FF compound today is, indeed, quite different (I believe they periodically update the compounds they use on all these classic patterns). But Michelin shifted the XAS from "mainstream" manufacturing to their specialty "Michelin Passion" division in the 1980's (and, thus, started updating the compounds) and my XAS's from the '80s and '90s showed no difference in wear from the original FF-compound versions (35K miles for me, which seems to be up to 70K for more gentle drivers). I'm 6K into a 2012 set currently and they show no measurable wear. I will, no doubt, toss them due to age (10 years is the number I go by) before they get anywhere near the tread indicators.

My take!

Best regards,

Steve

[JohnS]

As long as we're dreaming... What about the Michelin XDX in 185/70 13?  It's a V rated tire at a mere $460 a pop    As long as we're dreaming, dream big

 

Dream tyres here: http://www.michelinclassic.com/en/Classic-Tyre-range

Edited May 28, 2015 by JohnS

[Conserv]

As long as we're dreaming... What about the Michelin XDX in 185/70 13? It's a V rated tire at a mere $460 a pop As long as we're dreaming, dream big

Dream tyres here: http://www.michelinclassic.com/en/Classic-Tyre-range

The further complication or, rather, expense with the XDX -- and all the variations of the XWX series -- is that they've always been 10K-15K mile tires. Phenomenal grip, but at a price. And does an '02 really need a V-rated tire? (The XWX series was designed for '70s supercars, such as Ferrari's.) Still, a good dream!

Regards,

Steve

[markmac]

Mark,

The FF compound was used back in the day, and I'm confident the FF compound today is, indeed, quite different (I believe they periodically update the compounds they use on all these classic patterns). But Michelin shifted the XAS from "mainstream" manufacturing to their specialty "Michelin Passion" division in the 1980's (and, thus, started updating the compounds) and my XAS's from the '80s and '90s showed no difference in wear from the original FF-compound versions (35K miles for me, which seems to be up to 70K for more gentle drivers). I'm 6K into a 2012 set currently and they show no measurable wear. I will, no doubt, toss them due to age (10 years is the number I go by) before they get anywhere near the tread indicators.

My take!

Best regards,

Steve

I don't own a "street" car any longer so I wouldn't pretend to be an expert, somewhere, someplace (not on this forum) I read something about the subject, my recollection is/was that they suggested they got like 14 or 15k out of them.....but again I don't recall any of the details so it doesn't really matter now.  If I did have a street o2 I would likely be running a set of them, soft compound, hard compound wouldn't really matter - they do look just right on an o2 (though for my taste the Pirelli CN-36 looked better, but then Pirelli isn't re-making them in the 13" size......they are making them again in 185/70 Vr 15 - apparently the Porsche guys bitched and wined enough that they gave in....haha)

 

http://www.alpinabmw2002.com

[Conserv]

... my recollection is/was that they suggested they got like 14 or 15k out of them....

Mark,

There are a lot of these modern XAS's out there and I have never heard those numbers, although, back in the '70s, my one crazy buddy could go through a set in 25K. My 2012 set are really going to have to step up the pace if they're going to somehow wear out in another 9K, since they look new at 6K. Now if you take these racing, that's a whole 'nother story!

Regards,

Steve