engine and drivetrain Clutch Pedal -- Randomly, No Resistance?!

[Simeon]

Take some advice and get your car checked by a mechanic. The fact that you have enough of a hydraulic leak that you have drained your reservoir and are running around with nuts missing from your steering and fuel leaks marks your car as one that has missed a lot of basic care and maintenance. I am worried now what else may be wrong with it.

Get someone else to go over it and get it up to snuff and then take over the maintenance .

[peterschop]

It's not your clutch MC leaking. The clutch line is the top one coming off the reservoir so the leak must be in the brake system. Top it off with some good Dot 4 brake fluid and check for leaks. Check your rear wheel cylinders, calipers and all the lines. If you can't find any, it could be the brake master cylinder leaking into the booster. Keep in mind, brake fluid eats paint and can lead to rust, especially on the front frame rails.

['76mintgrün'02]

It's not your clutch MC leaking.

 

How do you know this?  I will say, it is not just your clutch master that is leaking, for the reason Peter states; but the symptoms that brought you here imply that there is a leak in the clutch system... and now you know the brakes have a leak as well.

[peterschop]

How do you know this?  I will say, it is not just your clutch master that is leaking, for the reason Peter states; but the symptoms that brought you here imply that there is a leak in the clutch system... and now you know the brakes have a leak as well.

 

Well yes, clutch MC could be leaking but that is not the reason for the empty reservoir. I think the clutch is not working because the fluid is taking the path of least resistance when the pedal is pressed and squirting back into the empty reservoir. 

[OriginalOwner]

+1 peterschop.  My bet is a leak somewhere in the brake system.

 

On The Other Hand:  I just might buy into the unicorns & rainbows solution that nothing anywhere is leaking ..... the PO just never topped up the fluid reservoir, and there's enough fluid throughout the systems to make everything work OK.  "Evidence" for that is that the brakes still work OK, since the OP hasn't reported that they don't.

    And the misbehaving clutch operation is simply the first symptom to show itself ..... and overall the systems just want a brake fluid top-up.  Simple as that, in a unicorn/rainbow kinda way.  And as we know, miracles do happen.

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

Edited July 3, 2015 by OriginalOwner

['76mintgrün'02]

I think the clutch is not working because the fluid is taking the path of least resistance when the pedal is pressed and squirting back into the empty reservoir. 

 

I do not fully understand the plumbing involved, but that reservoir does not resist pressure from the clutch master, whether full or empty. the master would not pump backwards... would it?

[peterschop]

On The Other Hand:  I just might buy into the unicorns & rainbows solution that nothing anywhere is leaking ..... the PO just never topped up the fluid reservoir, and there's enough fluid throughout the systems to make everything work OK.  "Evidence" for that is that the brakes still work OK, since the OP hasn't reported that they don't.

    And the misbehaving clutch operation is simply the first symptom to show itself ..... and overall the systems just want a brake fluid top-up.  Simple as that, in a unicorn/rainbow kinda way.  And as we know, miracles do happen.

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

 

Got to disagree on that one. There should be no reason for the fluid to just disappear. It won't evaporate and if it is going down, even slowly, there's got to be a leak somewhere. The clutch not working is just the first symptom. If he didn't need the clutch and kept on driving, he would soon have no brakes.

[OriginalOwner]

+1 peterschop ..... unicorns and rainbows  =  grasping at straws.

 

It's been 25 years since I got some excellent theory & practical training on the brake system, and I've long forgotten exactly how the clutch master & slave interact in a hydraulic way, but no, the master does not pump backwards.

 

however ....  last year I had a low level in my truck's master cylinder (not as bad as the OP).  I just topped it up with fluid, got some air bubbles as the fluid flowed down & the air in the lines migrated upward ..... voila, no more concerns, and the clutch & brake systems have been operating just fine.

 

Cheers,

 

Carl

Edited July 3, 2015 by OriginalOwner

[peterschop]

I do not fully understand the plumbing involved, but that reservoir does not resist pressure from the clutch master, whether full or empty. the master would not pump backwards... would it?

 

You are correct, the master does not pump backwards but when you release the clutch, fluid will go backwards in the low pressure line, I believe.

[BeMyWay]

I like that rainbow stuff.  

 

There must be a leak of some kind, because the problem started after driving for sometime. Initially there must have been enough fluid in the reservoir to keep the clutch operating.  Because when you push the clutch it draws a small amount of fluid into the clutch piping.  And when you release the clutch a small amount of fluid is returned to the reservoir.

 

Now when the reservoir is too low, the clutch cylinder does not have the necessary fluid to complete the hydraulic compression and the slave cylinder will not engage.   The clutch hydraulics simply stops working because it does not have displacement fluid.  

 

So, the fluid went somewhere...I guess the unicorns are at it again, for they are known to suck down brake fluid.

 

Seriously, be careful and get it look at immediately.  Top off the brake fluid and get a nut on that relay rod end.

Good luck.

[M3M3]

Got to disagree on that one. There should be no reason for the fluid to just disappear. It won't evaporate and if it is going down, even slowly, there's got to be a leak somewhere. The clutch not working is just the first symptom. If he didn't need the clutch and kept on driving, he would soon have no brakes.

It goes into the calipers...... if the reservoir was not filled properly in first place, the car was driven for many miles without maintenance, as the brake pads wear down, the calipers take more fluid and the reservoir level drops below the clutch intake level.

Edited July 4, 2015 by mlytle

[peterschop]

It goes into the calipers...... if the reservoir was not filled properly in first place, the car was driven for many miles without maintenance, as the brake pads wear down, the calipers take more fluid and the reservoir level drops below the clutch intake level.

 

Yes, I agree that the level will go down some as the pads wear (even though that is not what I said in my post) but his reservoir is empty. I have had pads wear down to the metal and never saw the reservoir go empty. I still think that the clutch not working is a symptom of the low fluid, not the cause. 

[M3M3]

i agree with ya.  there is probably a leak somewhere. just mentioning that crappy maint could also result in the level going below the clutch intake.

[S-L]

After some (unnecessary) bruises, unicorns and rainbows happened.

 

(que):

 

A full reservoir of Dot4 brake fluid & couple pumps of the clutch, and minutes later my clutch was sliding into gears smoother than butter.

 

I felt like the happiest kid on the block (probably literally).

--

After making a mental note of the fluid level in the reservoir that day, and couple test drives later, the next morning was somewhat a disappointing one.

The fluid level had dropped approximately half an inch or so, which was depressing as I was hoping for the "unicorns & rainbows" quick fix. After a  couple more drives, I only found that the fluid level only kept going down.

 

So, something's leaking.

 

--

I'm going to try giving it a look today on some jackstands, but I still am having a hard time narrowing it down to what exactly is leaking. Although, I do know one thing; the car is operable in emergencies (fill the reservoir with brake fluid, and you should be just find for a couple days...but I'm not going to be buying brake fluid like I do food, so the plan's to narrow down the leak and find what needs to be replaced.

 

Here's more photos.

 

 

Also, notice the disconnected blue wire coming from the top of the picture. Isn't it supposed to be hooked up? I believe that wire goes directly to the master cylinder below, except it doesn't seem to fit when trying to insert it over the knob on the bottom left.

 

 

Would it be best at this point to simply take it to a shop and have them take a look at the whole issue? Also, what shops would you guys recommend in the Portland, Oregon area?

[peterschop]

I never bought into the unicorns and rainbows theory. 

 

After some (unnecessary) bruises, unicorns and rainbows happened.

 

(que):

 

 

A full reservoir of Dot4 brake fluid & couple pumps of the clutch, and minutes later my clutch was sliding into gears smoother than butter.

 

I felt like the happiest kid on the block (probably literally).

--

After making a mental note of the fluid level in the reservoir that day, and couple test drives later, the next morning was somewhat a disappointing one.

The fluid level had dropped approximately half an inch or so, which was depressing as I was hoping for the "unicorns & rainbows" quick fix. After a  couple more drives, I only found that the fluid level only kept going down.

 

So, something's leaking.

 

--

I'm going to try giving it a look today on some jackstands, but I still am having a hard time narrowing it down to what exactly is leaking. Although, I do know one thing; the car is operable in emergencies (fill the reservoir with brake fluid, and you should be just find for a couple days...but I'm not going to be buying brake fluid like I do food, so the plan's to narrow down the leak and find what needs to be replaced.

 

Here's more photos.

 

 

 

 

 

Would it be best at this point to simply take it to a shop and have them take a look at the whole issue? Also, what shops would you guys recommend in the Portland, Oregon area?

 

Well, you could take it to a shop but what fun is that? You can do what they would do yourself. Put the car up on jack stands and take the wheels off,. What I said earlier still stands. Take the rear drums off and check the wheel cylinders, and lines going to them. Take the front wheels off and look at the calipers, lines going to them and the master cylinder. If you still don't find any leaks, suspect a bad master cylinder leaking into the brake booster.

 

It's not your clutch MC leaking. The clutch line is the top one coming off the reservoir so the leak must be in the brake system. Top it off with some good Dot 4 brake fluid and check for leaks. Check your rear wheel cylinders, calipers and all the lines. If you can't find any, it could be the brake master cylinder leaking into the booster. Keep in mind, brake fluid eats paint and can lead to rust, especially on the front frame rails.

Edited July 8, 2015 by peterschop