electrical and ignition Bizarre ignition issue

[BigIrish]

I'm hoping some of the electrical genius' on here can chime in with their thoughts or things to try.

 

I have a new Ireland Tii electronic distributor with pertronix-like ignition.  New plug wires, good plugs, new 010 black coil.  I'm using the factory resistor wire which is in very good shape.  

 

The car runs great all over town.  When I take it to the autocross and run it hard, at some point during the day the ignition totally dies.  Zero spark, tach goes to zero in an instant.  Once the car cools down to ice cold (overnight), it will restart, run great with no issues.

 

I thought it was the oil coil, which looked original, so I replaced that, but I've now been towed home a second time.  My next thought is it has to be the ignitor.  I talked to Jeff at Ireland and he said typically ignitors just fail and they are done.  They don't come back to life.  

 

The last time it died at the autocross (Sunday), a nice guy helped me test everything with a multimeter.  We were getting 12+ volts to the coil with the ignition on, so that ruled out bad grounds or shorted wiring.  Also pulled the high tension wires off the distributor, stuck a screwdriver in, and watched for sparks against a good ground while someone cranked.  Tried this with a spark plug wire and also the coil wire.  Nothing.  Tach also registered totally flat while cranking.

 

My ONLY other thought here is that the ignitor is wired incorrectly.  Per the Ireland instructions, red wire goes to + side of coil, black wire to - side.  However, I also read that the ignitor requires 12 volts, no more no less.  Since I'm using the factory resistor wire, doesn't that mean the + side of the coil is getting less than 12v under load?  Perhaps when I run it hard, the voltage drops enough to disrupt the ignitor function? 

 

I reconnected the red ignitor wire to the factory ignition wire, but before the resistor wire section, so it will get true 12v at all times.  Of course it runs great once again but now I totally don't trust it.  I have another event this weekend that I really want to make it to.  

 

My next thought is that for some reason I'm getting over-current with the car running, like perhaps current through the start wire as opposed to the resistor wire.  I would think this would just fry the ignitor and it would not come back to life.  

 

Thoughts??  Should I just ditch the black coil & resistor wire setup and just wire up a blue 012 coil?

 

 

 

 

[kbmb02]

... and he said typically ignitors just fail and they are done.  They don't come back to life.  

 

Many say and believe that, and for a while it was my experience as well. However, I worked on a car recently in which the ignitor - Pertronix, in this case - would 'flicker' (engine would stumble) and then fail after running for a bit. After cooling it would run again. So while it typically may be true that they fail entirely, my experience suggests you might consider replacing the ignitor. -KB

[Stevenc22]

Big Irish, i have a spare brand new hot spark in my garage which i will loan to you so you can eliminate the ignitor.

 

The ignitor is supposed to receive full 12v before the resistor.

Edited December 8, 2015 by Stevenc22

[percy]

I'm hoping some of the electrical genius' on here can chime in with their thoughts or things to try.

 

I have a new Ireland Tii electronic distributor with pertronix-like ignition.  New plug wires, good plugs, new 010 black coil.  I'm using the factory resistor wire which is in very good shape.  

 

The car runs great all over town.  When I take it to the autocross and run it hard, at some point during the day the ignition totally dies.  Zero spark, tach goes to zero in an instant.  Once the car cools down to ice cold (overnight), it will restart, run great with no issues.

 

I thought it was the oil coil, which looked original, so I replaced that, but I've now been towed home a second time.  My next thought is it has to be the ignitor.  I talked to Jeff at Ireland and he said typically ignitors just fail and they are done.  They don't come back to life.  

 

The last time it died at the autocross (Sunday), a nice guy helped me test everything with a multimeter.  We were getting 12+ volts to the coil with the ignition on, so that ruled out bad grounds or shorted wiring.  Also pulled the high tension wires off the distributor, stuck a screwdriver in, and watched for sparks against a good ground while someone cranked.  Tried this with a spark plug wire and also the coil wire.  Nothing.  Tach also registered totally flat while cranking.

 

My ONLY other thought here is that the ignitor is wired incorrectly.  Per the Ireland instructions, red wire goes to + side of coil, black wire to - side.  However, I also read that the ignitor requires 12 volts, no more no less.  Since I'm using the factory resistor wire, doesn't that mean the + side of the coil is getting less than 12v under load?  Perhaps when I run it hard, the voltage drops enough to disrupt the ignitor function? 

 

I reconnected the red ignitor wire to the factory ignition wire, but before the resistor wire section, so it will get true 12v at all times.  Of course it runs great once again but now I totally don't trust it.  I have another event this weekend that I really want to make it to.  

 

My next thought is that for some reason I'm getting over-current with the car running, like perhaps current through the start wire as opposed to the resistor wire.  I would think this would just fry the ignitor and it would not come back to life.  

 

Thoughts??  Should I just ditch the black coil & resistor wire setup and just wire up a blue 012 coil?

 

 

 

I won't comment on your aftermarket setup, as my experience with that equipment is limited.  However, there are a few things you might consider.

 

First, return the system to the original setup and see if the condition recurs.  You did not explain whether you still have a condenser connected, and, if so, this could be part of the problem.  Next, the coil resistor wire is known to cause problems over time.  Is yours yellow-tan and showing signs of having over heated?  Third, coils can fail, especially when pushed to the limit and cooked with the setting on "high", so your coil or even the replacement could be a contributing factor.  I say this having dealt with a similar problem of an ignition that died - without warning and only on rare instances.  The suspect coil worked fine on a different vehicle for two weeks - until, without warning, the "different" ignition died.  Symptoms completely disappeared with coil replacement.  Bearing in mind when you had an ignition failure and found 12v to the coil, it is too bad you did not merely swap coils then, to see if the problem disappeared.

 

Lastly, I understand you tested for voltage after an ignition failure, but perhaps things cooled down enough to have hidden the true problem.  It may be that you still had a connection issue with 12v source for your ignition.  Examining the quality of all connections/grounds from the switch to the coil seems like it couldn’t hurt.  A loose fastener or a hint of corrosion can easily spoil a day at the track.

[BigIrish]

Just to clarify, I had the same issue with the old coil and now again with the new coil.  The distributor is an all new drop-in unit that comes with ignitor in place.

 

I agree it's probably best to replace the ignitor and I have one on order.  I will also bypass the suspect resistor wire and use a blue coil I have.  

 

The next question is:  How the heck do I get the old ignitor out?  I see it's mounted to a plate, which is held in with the screw.  But the grey magnetic pickup wheel is in the way of sliding the plate out.  I don't see any screws or pins on the wheel, so I'm guessing it's press-fit or bonded (?)

 

Any ideas?  

 

 

[Stevenc22]

In a normal distributor, the petronix is held in with 1 screw and the magnetic ring just slides onto the shaft. Ireland may custom build their distributors such that the petronix is non removable (I dont know)

[BigIrish]

Ok I called IE and they said they slide on the ring and loctite it in place.  They said it should be able to pry it loose with a screwdriver.  

 

Hopefully I can get it off without destroying it.  We shall see...

[Hans]

I would check the engine ground cables, as well as the wires related to ignition.

[KFunk]

When it dies, try disconnecting the tach wire and see if it fires up.

 

I had a short on my tach wire that was just old and weak, which displayed similar symptoms.  I got towed home a couple times, after replacing a lot of stuff....

Yes, you get 12V at coil just fine, and all ignition components are in fine shape.  But if the wire that tells it when to spark is shorting out through the tach wire, then you get no spark.

[BigIrish]

Wow, that's something I would have never thought of.  Are you able to disconnect the tach wire under the hood or are you going into the dash?

 

I would have thought it would be one of the wires hooked to the coil, but I disconnected all of them except the ignitor wires and the tach still works.  No idea how that is possible....and also makes me wonder what the 2 wires hooked to the - side of the coil are for. 

[Simeon]

Tach is wired as the second black wire on the connection at the distributor. This is through connected to the coil negative (at least it is on mine)

[KFunk]

Wow, that's something I would have never thought of.  Are you able to disconnect the tach wire under the hood or are you going into the dash?

 

I would have thought it would be one of the wires hooked to the coil, but I disconnected all of them except the ignitor wires and the tach still works.  No idea how that is possible....and also makes me wonder what the 2 wires hooked to the - side of the coil are for. 

 

Yeaaaah, it took me a long time too, and now I have a nice fancy CraneCams system for the heck of it, too.  

 

I fixed it by disconnecting under the hood.   My short was somewhere between the ignition system and dash, so disconnecting at gauge wouldn't have done much.

I can't remember if mine hooked into the negative side of the coil or the back of the dizzy, but they're both connected and should do the same thing.

No guarantees that's your problem, but it can happen.

If that's not it, then another related thing is to verify that your getting intermittent spark on that circuit (of course, when problem is happening).  A 12V test light is perfect to connect to negative side of coil, then get in car and crank it,  and light should flash intermittently.  In my case, I just got a stable glow, which meant something was up.

[BigIrish]

Ah, test light is another good tip.  

 

If anything, my lesson from these past 2 embarrassing tows home is that I'm not leaving the house without a substantial toolbox for awhile.

 

I almost didn't even make it to the last event.  My new supertrapp became clogged with a small amount of fiberglass insulation that had come loose and couldn't get through the exhaust disks.  It plugged it up so completely that it stalled the car.  Of course I didn't have the correct allen wrench in the trunk to get the end cap off....

[Arizona02]

Ok I called IE and they said they slide on the ring and loctite it in place.  They said it should be able to pry it loose with a screwdriver.  

 

Hopefully I can get it off without destroying it.  We shall see...

Use 2 screw drivers opposite each other.