engine and drivetrain M10 engine setup - thoughts and feedback

[thorkel]

Hi, everyone!

 

I know that this subject is something many of the posts on this forums are about - but after searching, reading and using many hours collecting information, I now want your feedback on this specific build. My plan with this thread, and something I hope will help the 02 community, is also to collect the comments and remarks you give in the opening post, so future newbies like me can use it in the planning of their build.

 

After owning my 1975 2002 for some years I now want to make some upgrades to the engine, after the old one seized last summer. At that time i had just recently upgraded the ignition, and done a complete rework of the suspension and brakes. In the continuation of that I want to build a engine corresponding to the current suspension setup - a hot street car, ready for sunny days on winding roads, and occasional track use.

 

So far, my setup, both the engine and the suspension, is affected by trial and error. I have base my choices on information found on various forums, and my base knowledge has not always been as good as it should before making a decision. In short; Lacking the needed knowledge to find a good balance between the components.

 

To your information my future plans are based on the setup Korman uses on their stage 2 engines.

 

The engine parts I have as of today:

 

- Bosch red coil:

I know this coil is debated, and several would probably suggest to go for the blue coil in stead. That might be my choice as well if the recommendations in this thread favores it.

 

- 1.8 ohm ballast resistor:

Need to go over the circuit diagram again, as the ballaster gives me some issues. The ground connection might be wrong.

 

- Tii distributor:

Alternative, 123ignition w/ bluetooth when its available? This makes me wonder about a electronic ignition like the MSD-6A - is this, or similar, something is should consider either way?

 

UPDATE: The 123ignition seems likely to be the solution I choose. Selling the Tii distributor.

 

- 8mm spark plug wires:

OK

 

- Weber 45 DCOE:

I know, these are big and might be to big for my build. Had I done the purchase today I would have bought the 40DCOE instead. Found them at a good price, and had to little patience at the time. What I hope to be able to do, is to choke them down and make them work. This is a budgeted build, and I would like to avoid the expense of buying new carburetors, if possible.

 

- IE stage 2 headers:

OK.

 

Planned setup:

 

- Forged pistons:

10.5:1 CR. Correct me if I'm way out on this! The fuel I use is 98 octane.

 

UPDATE: Good reasonable argument for choosing 10.1:5 CR instead. What triggered me is the argument about wider tuning range.

 

- Piston rods:

Stock.

 

- Camshaft:

Schrick 292 deg

 

UPDATE: More likely to choose the KM Cams 290. The reason being minimal changes in specs, at a much lower price.

 

- Valve springs:

KM Cams double springs. Local shop.

 

- Valves:

Stock.

 

UPDATE: Going to stay stock. Price vs. reward.

 

- Rocker arms:

KM Cams steel rockers. Local shop.

 

- Engine mounts:

Heavy duty rubber. The urethane mounts makes the car shake like a mad washer.

 

Picture of my car:

 

What are your thoughts?

 

Modification, 22.01.16: Editorial changes.

Modification, 22.01.16: Added updates based on feedback

Edited January 22, 2016 by thorkel

[jrkoupe]

jus wanna say

 

 

that body looks straight.....very nice.

[thorkel]

Thank you, jrkoupe! Some quirks and wrinkels under the surface, but absolutely a good base for a long term relationship.

Sent fra min D6503 via Tapatalk

[Lee]

10.5:1 pistons + Shrick 292 + 45 DCOES w/ 34/36 venturies is a very good streetable combination. ;-)

Edited January 22, 2016 by Lee

[FB73tii]

Either Red or Blue coil is fine. If it was a race engine I'd say go crankfire, but a tii distributor in good shape is fine for your application. Mine worked well at 7,000 rpm for many years. Suggest go +1mm on intake and exhaust valves, and do some mild porting to the head. Nothing major, just bowl cleanup and smooth out the short side turn.

 

Are you building it yourself? Do the measurements to make sure you have plenty of valve-to-piston clearance. I learned this the hard way ($$$). Moroso makes a set of low tension valvetrain checking springs that are good for this, only $11 USD.

 

Great that you can get the KM products local, I use them in both my race engines (316 with 11.5 CR and 336 with 13.8 CR)

 

Best, Fred

[arminyack]

I wouldn't use the Tii distro on a carbed car. The Tii ignition curve is specific for the mech fuel injected car, which has better fuel atomization than carbs, thus a faster burn. The carbed car therefore needs more advance (and sooner) than the fuel injected car. You'll be robbing yourself power with that distro on your car. 

 

123ignition....the best thing I ever did for my car!

Edited January 22, 2016 by arminyack

[kbmb02]

My opinion: sell the 45's and get 40's. If you have the ability to test the valve springs, send me a PM and I'll tell you how they compare to various others I've tested.

 

I actually prefer the performance and track-side reliability of the 38/38 downdraft (though sure, I like the cool look and sound of sidedrafts ... and, designed/built just right, a sidedraft M10 can be a winner). As a reminder...

 

[Guest_anonymous]

Sounds like a great setup to go for froyo around the corner

[thorkel]

This is why I like this forum! Thanks to all the replies so far.

 

10.5:1 pistons + Shrick 292 + 45 DCOES w/ 34/36 venturies is a very good streetable combination. ;-)

That's what I'm looking for!

 

Either Red or Blue coil is fine. If it was a race engine I'd say go crankfire, but a tii distributor in good shape is fine for your application. Mine worked well at 7,000 rpm for many years. Suggest go +1mm on intake and exhaust valves, and do some mild porting to the head. Nothing major, just bowl cleanup and smooth out the short side turn.

 

Are you building it yourself? Do the measurements to make sure you have plenty of valve-to-piston clearance. I learned this the hard way ($$$). Moroso makes a set of low tension valvetrain checking springs that are good for this, only $11 USD.

 

Great that you can get the KM products local, I use them in both my race engines (316 with 11.5 CR and 336 with 13.8 CR)

 

Best, Fred

Don't think the valve change is going to take place at this point, but might look at it again later down the road. The porting on the other hand, that might be something look closer at - at least get a price quote. I have two E12 cylinder heads, so I might finish one before the summer, and do some more work, like larger valves and porting/polishing, on the other one next winter.

 

At the moment the plan is to build it myself, with help from a experienced engine builder. Don't want unnecessary expenses.

 

Have seen what I think are some pictures of your car, and must say I think it looks great!

 

I wouldn't use the Tii distro on a carbed car. The Tii ignition curve is specific for the mech fuel injected car, which has better fuel atomization than carbs, thus a faster burn. The carbed car therefore needs more advance (and sooner) than the fuel injected car. You'll be robbing yourself power with that distro on your car. 

 

123ignition....the best thing I ever did for my car!

What's the complete ignition setup you use? Yeah, that's what I'm leaning towards going for the 123ignition. Already visualizing driving down the road making the car go better on the fly.

 

My opinion: sell the 45's and get 40's. If you have the ability to test the valve springs, send me a PM and I'll tell you how they compare to various others I've tested.

 

I actually prefer the performance and track-side reliability of the 38/38 downdraft (though sure, I like the cool look and sound of sidedrafts ... and, designed/built just right, a sidedraft M10 can be a winner). As a reminder...

 

I see what you mean. If I decide to sell the 45's, I think of downdraft as just as viable an option as a pair of 40's. Clarifying: What else do I need for a downdraft setup? Can I use a original intake manifold? Is the rest of my suggested setup compliable with a downdraft? Camshaft, pistons etc.

 

Will see what I can do about the valve springs - just need to buy them first.

 

That's one sweet revving engine

 

[Rustpile]

You should drive a car with sidedrafts before you decide against it. 

 

02classic.no is a great norwegian page where there are a lot of guys I am sure are willing to take you for a spin in their car. 

 

Mine is at least on offer, as long as we have some days with temps above freezing. I only have summer tires on the 02... 

 

10:5 compression is the upper limit of what I would run on 98. But, with really good ignition tuning, sure. 10:1 gives a wider tuning range. You might even be able to run 95, just beware of the relatively high ethanol content (4,5%) that eats away on brass. Like what your jets are made of. I´d go with the KM-cams stage 2 cam, in stead of Dr.Schrick, just because it´s a good cam, pretty close to your spec. 290 degree(110/10.5) at at much lower price. 

 

If KM Cams is local to you; I would have had them build the head for you. They know their stuff. 

 

If you go with the KM-cam, skip the oversize valves and run 10:1 compression, I´d guesstimate that you would somewhere between 5-10 hp, that number being closer to 5 than 10. It would, on the other hand save you upwards of 20 000 NOK(2000 USD). I would not be willing to spend that much on 5-6-7 hp.

 

1 valve, installed, is roughly 1000 NOK(100 USD), you need 8, the Schrick cam is USD 600, with shipping and tax, almost 10 000 NOK, the KM cam is 3000 NOK(300 USD)

[thorkel]

Hi Rustpile.

 

You give some good arguments for lowering the CR to 10.1:1, and not go for the 10.5:1 pistons. Certainly worth giving it another thought! I use the 98 oct partly because it's without ethanol, at least in the petrol from two of the company's still selling it.

 

Going to give KM Cams a call on monday, and hear what they think about the setup and get some prices quoted on some different packages.

 

Although I see your point with the prices you mention, I want to clarify that the valve increase is out of the question at this stage. That will be something to do when all other upgrades are in place, and I'm looking for the last horsepowers in the engine.

 

Sending you a PM.

[kbmb02]

I see what you mean. If I decide to sell the 45's, I think of downdraft as just as viable an option as a pair of 40's. Clarifying: What else do I need for a downdraft setup? Can I use a original intake manifold? Is the rest of my suggested setup compliable with a downdraft? Camshaft, pistons etc.

 

Will see what I can do about the valve springs - just need to buy them first.

 

 

The original intake, with a bit of modification, can be used with the downdraft 38/38 (so long as the original was for a two barrel, not the single barrel unit). -KB

[TobyB]

 

 

KM Cams steel rockers. Local shop.

I am jealous.  Those are very pretty parts.

 

I too think you're on the right track.  If it was me, I'd try the 45's and see what you think.  Use them first, see if they fit YOU, and then decide.

They are a commodity, so you can certainly sell them at little loss, and even get a set of 40's to back- to- back.

The down side of this is that you end up buying a significant number of jets to make them work. 

Because I disagree with Ken a bit- with good linkage the 45's aren't way too big for what you're proposing. 

As to a good linkage, I dunno- I ended up making mine out of parts, with several over- center bellcranks to get better modulation around idle.

The rubber engine mounts will fight you here a bit- engine movement on the stock 2002 linkage messes with your throttle application.

Maybe a good cable setup?

 

Good luck!

 

t

[thorkel]

Update on the build!

 

Today the car was started for the first time with the new engine in place, and also washed for the first time this season. A nice feeling after waiting for several months to complete the building of a "make it work-engine", a engine for the car until I have the time and finances to do a complete rebuild of my other engine with a upgraded bottom and top-end.

 

Specs on the "make it work-engine":

- Stock pistons 8.5:1 CR

- Honed cylinders

- New bearings and gaskets

- Resurfaced cylinder head

- 290 degree camshaft (KM Cams)

- Stock rocker arms and valve springs

- Ported intake and intake manifold

- Stage 2 step-style header from IE

- Two dual Weber 45 DCOE

- Aluminium radiator

- Electric cooling fan

 

Engine beeing mounted:

 

 

Starting up and cleaning:

 

Future plans:

- Forged pistons 10.5:1 CR

- Engineblock bored to 91mm

- H-beam connecting rods

- Balanced crankshaft

- Steel rocker arms

- Dual valve springs

- Distributor from 123ignition*

- New exhaust system*

- Wideband lambda sensor air/fuel*

 

* prioritized with the current engine build.

 

Summarized:

As you can see I'm going for the 45 DCOE setup after considering to switch to the Weber 32/36 for several months, and the deciding factor for me was the fact that I already had everything needed to install the 45's. The 45's will also be a part of the next engine build but at the time i have not set a date for that project to start, but having it ready for next season would be nice. Next on the agenda for the car is to upgrade to a custom 2.5" exhaust with wideband lambda sensor, and install the 123/Tune+ distributor.

Edited June 5, 2016 by thorkel