Very Early 1968 2002: VIN 1660016

[ray_]

I want an early car, but that looks like a big job to restore properly. The car would be safe with me because I already have an M2 and a track car

 

How's your M2 running?

 

[Mike Self]

US spec 2002 production began sometime (as best I can tell) in Feb 1968 with VIN 1660001, so this car must have been built during the first week of production.  They started appearing at US dealers sometime in April 1968, as I had a friend who bought one of the first ones off the boat--either in NYC or Connecticut--in April 1968.  It was Polaris, but I don't remember if it had a sunroof, and unfortunately I never took down the VIN.  

 

The car pictured (1660016) is definitely an early one--note the position of the outside mirror on the driver's door--mounted right at the leading edge of the door--like early 1600s and NK cars--instead of further back like even the later '68s.  The mirror itself is different from the later ones, as it has one machine screw and one stud mount.  That's a dead giveaway of a very early 2002.  Bet it has--or had--the embossed front hood trim too.  Hoffman's press pool road test car that showed up in all the car mags in April and May '68 was a sunroof, Polaris car with an embossed hood trim and leading edge outside mirror...wonder if this was the car?  

 

Definitely worth saving and returning to stock, complete with two piece wheel covers, and that and 0013 are definitely the earliest ones I've ever heard of...

 

cheers

mike 

[Conserv]

1660016 + $80,000 =

 

Edited August 14, 2018 by Conserv

[Preyupy]

166002 is in Seattle.  Originally Polaris with sunroof.  Currently red with a turbocharged M10.  Owned by a ex unlimited hydroplane crew chief.  He says he is planning on putting it back to stock (kind of, says it will be hard to give up the turbo)   

[Conserv]

On 1/26/2016 at 4:56 PM, Preyupy said:

166002 is in Seattle.  Originally Polaris with sunroof.  Currently red with a turbocharged M10.  Owned by a ex unlimited hydroplane crew chief.  He says he is planning on putting it back to stock (kind of, says it will be hard to give up the turbo)

 

So the 3 earliest U.S. 2002's known to this forum, 1660002, 1660013, and 1660016, were all factory sunroof cars. Pure chance? Or was the first batch of 2002's heavily weighted toward sunroof cars? If 3 of the first 16 cars are known to this forum, how many other survivors from this group are simply not known to this forum? And how does this play into the mythology -- and I'm certainly guilty of reinforcing this -- that sunroof cars suffer more from rocker panel rust due to the sunroof drain design? I don't know that there are real answers to these questions, but these are issues of which we should keep mindful.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Edited August 14, 2018 by Conserv

[02Les]

166002 is in Seattle.  Originally Polaris with sunroof.  Currently red with a turbocharged M10.  Owned by a ex unlimited hydroplane crew chief.  He says he is planning on putting it back to stock (kind of, says it will be hard to give up the turbo)

Just to be clear, as you are missing the 7th number; we are talking about 1660002?

[Preyupy]

Yes it's 1660002

[02Anders]

VIN 1660016 could be the earliest 2002 known by this forum. My wife is just recovering from my purchase of the '73 tii in June 2014, so will someone PLEASE buy the Wisconsin car and NOT turn it into an M2 or track car? This could well be the earliest surviving U.S. 2002. And it appears to be an original Polaris car with a factory sunroof! Yeah! If you're having a tough time recognizing the significance of that, just imagine what Porsche collectors would be doing if it were the earliest surviving U.S. 911, and it had a factory sunroof to boot! You got it: hand-to-hand combat.

Regards,

Steve

 

Oh come on Steve, you know that you simply have to buy this very significant and very early 2002!!  You're the right man to do so...

And then return her to her former glory - perfectly stock.  

And don't worry about your wife - it only took her 1 and a half year to recover from your last purchase, so statistically by the summer 2017 she'll be back to normal again.  A small price to pay...  

[Conserv]

On 1/28/2016 at 6:22 PM, 02Anders said:

Oh come on Steve, you know that you simply have to buy this very significant and very early 2002!! You're the right man to do so...

And then return her to her former glory - perfectly stock.

And don't worry about your wife - it only took her 1 and a half year to recover from your last purchase, so statistically by the summer 2017 she'll be back to normal again. A small price to pay...

 

Thank you, Anders,

 

But notice I used "recovering," rather than "recovered." More specifically, my wife is 80% recovered from this last '02 purchase. And you have probably assumed, however, a straight line methodology for such recoveries whereas, as a point of fact, the last 20% of the recovery takes 80% of the recovery time. So 17 months has only moved me 20% of the way to being able to purchase The Next '02. This leaves me with 68 additional months, and I fear the seller of this most desirable early 2002 might, in fact, be looking for a quicker sale.

 

But, yes, I could see a Polaris '68 as a neat counterpart to my Polaris '76, illustrating the similarities and differences between those two poles of the production run, and evidencing my willingness to forgive BMW for their metallic paint fiasco that soured the BMW-Steve relationship for nearly 30 years. And could I possibly find two better examples of failing BMW paint than Polaris Neu and Polaris PVC-frei? I think not!

With the above said, I do sincerely appreciate your vote of confidence in believing I could do justice to this rare early '68. But maybe not at this moment!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

Edited August 14, 2018 by Conserv

[shoeless]

Alright Steve, you've convinced me. I'll buy the car, you fund the resto....we all win.

 

Seriously, I have been after an 02 for some time now and this would be in my range. I must admit though, being that it would be my first, I am intimidated by the significance and afraid I couldn't do it justice with my modest efforts. 

[Conserv]

On 1/30/2016 at 3:31 AM, shoeless said:

Alright Steve, you've convinced me. I'll buy the car, you fund the resto....we all win.

Seriously, I have been after an 02 for some time now and this would be in my range. I must admit though, being that it would be my first, I am intimidated by the significance and afraid I couldn't do it justice with my modest efforts.

 

If you stabilize the car and slow down its deterioration, you have done a great deal for it! Garage it. If you remove original parts and choose not to restore them currently -- I'm especially referring to those, such as the brakes, that are distinctively "early '02" -- mark, pack, and save them until you, or the next caretaker, is ready to re-use them. Photograph everything. YOU don't have to be the caretaker that restores it to Pebble Beach standards. And, at least in my opinion, the BEST restoration is the one that leaves un-damaged components un-restored. Ten years from now, the increasing value of such an early example, particularly in a desirable color and with the factory sunroof, will make a substantial investment in the car more appealing: to you and to others. But someone's got to get the car, currently looking quite sad, through these next ten years! As with doctoring, "First, do no harm."

 

But...you also have to seriously evaluate the car's current condition before you buy, to determine whether it is restorable by "ordinary" means. I especially note this after seeing the photo of the right rear wheel housing, and its patches, in the other thread (linked above somewhere). I, personally, would really want to pull out the bottom seat cushion of the rear seat -- an easy-enough task -- and see what the rear floor, particularly around the two rear subframe mounting bolts, looks like. The bases of the A pillars -- mostly visible and accessible from the inside of the front wheel wells -- would be another area symptomatic of where heartbreakingly-bad rust can reside. Any rust is repairable: see stymee's "Northeast tii" blog as well as Delia's photos of a tii for which only the roof and firewall survived the restoration. But the worst examples require extraordinary measures. I would want to more-or-less know, in advance, if I were taking on one of those cars!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Edited August 14, 2018 by Conserv

[71bmr02]

I'll see your 166xxx's and raise with my 1561921 and from what I've found it appears to be one of the first cars into the u.s.  any one want to take a shot at date of mfg?  I havn't been to interested in determining date of mfg until now and will start the process this evening.

Gale

[Roundeie]

I'll see your 166xxx's and raise with my 1561921 and from what I've found it appears to be one of the first cars into the u.s. any one want to take a shot at date of mfg? I havn't been to interested in determining date of mfg until now and will start the process this evening.

Gale

VIN 1561921

Model BMW 1600

Region USA

Version (LHD) LHD

Transmission Mechanic

Bodywork 114

Generation Pre 71

Year 1967

Production Sep 67 - Dec 67

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[02Anders]

Thank you, Anders,

But notice I used "recovering," rather than "recovered." More specifically, my wife is 80% recovered from this last '02 purchase. And you have probably assumed, however, a straight line methodology for such recoveries whereas, as a point of fact, the last 20% of the recovery takes 80% of the recovery time. So 17 months has only moved me 20% of the way to being able to purchase The Next '02. This leaves me with 68 additional months, and I fear the seller of this most desirable early 2002 might, in fact, be looking for a quicker sale.

But, yes, I could see a Polaris '68 as a neat counterpart to my Polaris '76, illustrating the similarities and differences between those two poles of the production run, and evidencing my willingness to forgive BMW for their metallic paint fiasco that soured the BMW-Steve relationship for nearly 30 years. And could I possibly find two better examples of failing BMW paint than Polaris Neu and Polaris PVC-frei? I think not!

With the above said, I do sincerely appreciate your vote of confidence in believing I could do justice to this rare early '68. But maybe not at this moment!

Best regards,

Steve

 

 

Well Steve it seems to me, that it's barely worth waiting 80% for a mere 20%.

There's not much logic in that - you're not getting your moneys worth on this one.

So instead you may as well wack the necessary recovery period back up to 100%, but gaining another 02 in the process.

After all, waiting 100% for 100% seems a lot better value than waiting 80% for a low 20%.

 

And as you rightly point out, owning a Polaris first-year-of-production 2002 next to a Polaris last-year-of-production would be rather cool - to say the least!  

[02Anders]

If you stabilize the car and slow down its deterioration, you have done a great deal for it! Garage it. If you remove original parts and choose not to restore them currently -- I'm especially referring to those, such as the brakes, that are distinctively "early '02" -- mark, pack, and save them until you, or the next caretaker, is ready to re-use them. Photograph everything. YOU don't have to be the caretaker that restores it to Pebble Beach standards. And, at least in my opinion, the BEST restoration is the one that leaves un-damaged components un-restored. Ten years from now, the increasing value of such an early example, particularly in a desirable color and with the factory sunroof, will make a substantial investment in the car more appealing: to you and to others. But someone's got to get the car, currently looking quite sad, through these next ten years! As with doctoring, "First, do no harm."

But...you also have to seriously evaluate the car's current condition before you buy, to determine whether it is restorable by "ordinary" means. I especially note this after seeing the photo of the right rear wheel housing, and its patches, in the other thread (linked above somewhere). I, personally, would really want to pull out the bottom seat cushion of the rear seat -- an easy-enough task -- and see what the rear floor, particularly around the two rear subframe mounting bolts, looks like. The bases of the A pillars -- mostly visible and accessible from the inside of the front wheel wells -- would be another area symptomatic of where heartbreakingly-bad rust can reside. Any rust is repairable: see stymee's "Northeast tii" blog as well as Delia's photos of a tii for which only the roof and firewall survived the restoration. But the worst examples require extraordinary measures. I would want to more-or-less know, in advance, if I were taking on one of those cars!

Regards,

Steve

 

In no way do I disagree with you Steve, but at the same time I must point out that 02's in a much worse state than this car, have been restored with amazing results.  VIN 1504069 springs to mind.  Check out the thread on it here:

http://www.02forum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=8189

Especially the pics on page 6 get really interesting!!