engine and drivetrain Thoughts on Estimate for Front Suspension Fixes

[thinksound_mike]

i've been picking up parts over the last couple of months to do my suspension. i need to take inventory of what i have and what i need. looking forward to getting this done when the weather warms up.

[Lee]

I choked... $160.00 / hour ? Really?

[Paul Berdoulay]

I was wondering how you got the track rod removed. Last weekend I removed both my tie rods with ease but am missing the right tool (or brain) to get my track rod off. Sorry, thanks for any help.

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['76mintgrün'02]

I used/like this style.  They get into tight places and take things apart without damaging the rubber boots, which means you can reuse parts.  It also avoids putting unnecessary side loads and shock into things like the steering box.  It is a very gentle controlled way to pop them apart.

Edited February 12, 2016 by '76Mintgrun'02

[chasmrider]

I used a pickle fork, one side came out easy, the other I had to get a bigger hammer.

[cda951]

OK, I'll bite on this one.

 

I manage a well-established, respected Porsche/BMW repair shop in an expensive town, and I will say that the cost of doing business in such places is much, much higher than most areas of the country. Look at what houses and other real estate cost in any given area, and a shop labor rate will be priced commensurately. It's that simple. But, a competent, honest shop does give you value for your money by knowing the cars inside out and determining what needs fixing and what doesn't. Therefore, diagnosis is usually very quick (no throwing darts and unnecessary parts replacement), and we always repair small issues along the way while doing bigger jobs. Though, it must be said that with old cars, there can be many, many issues (especially rust/old wiring and decades of hack repairs), and costs can snowball quickly.

 

As for parts, those are all current list prices for Genuine BMW parts. That is certainly a safe route (for the most part), but my shop has experience with some quality aftermarket brands, with which we would pass the savings onto the customer. But, even that can be a crapshoot, with globalization and constantly shifting factories and suppliers, even for Genuine parts (don't get me started on M52TU/M54 map-controlled thermostats!).

 

We generally do not install customer supplied parts, because we cannot guarantee them. If a customer supplied part were to fail, the law says that we are still on the hook to repair it because we provided the labor (at least here in CA). Of course, we do mark up the parts a modest amount, but why wouldn't we? Every other type of business does the same thing, but because consumers see insanely low prices for auto parts on the internet from discount supply sites, the automotive service industry somehow gets singled out for ripping people off.

 

Now, it is true that there are a number of shady shops out there that give the industry a bad name, but there are still honest, great places left! Check with local BMWCCA members, and listen to people like AceAndrew, as he deals with shops all the time. I will say that while I don't personally know anyone from Bavarian Professionals, they are part of the BIMRS association of top-level BMW specialty shops (www.bimrs.org), as is my shop; all members are extensively vetted, and most tend to be top-notch.

 

Anyway, while I do work at a shop, I do love this forum and reading all of the stories of DIYers conquering complex and basic jobs alike. I love that the 2002 is still an attainable, approachable car that the average person with basic mechanical skills can work on themselves. Yes, we have seen an uptick in classic BMW work lately as the interest in/value of these cars has gone up, but I don't want to see it go the way of early Porsches (see rant here: http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/175921-nice-72-tii-on-bat/#entry1085340). I love that people my age and younger are getting into these cars and keeping the flame burning. Many of these folks don't have the money to pay me to fix their car, but I'm OK with that, and I am happy to give help and advice as I can.

 

I will say that I am more of a Porsche guy, but I love vintage BMWs as well and hope to make more events and meet more of you guys.

 

Chris

[skipsfcr]

Chris, this is a brilliant response. Thank you!

[DerekZ4]

Chris, this is a brilliant response. Thank you!

Agree great response.

If it's not poor form to ask which shop you run, I would love to know.

I'm always looking for a good place that will work on my Z4.

[freedo]

$160/hr to work on a 2002 seems extremely high.  i understand its a classic car but its a extremely easy vehicle to work on.  i did all my front suspension bushings, rear suspension bushing, guibo bushing and trans mount bushing in under 5hrs.  it was my first time doing any of that on the car.  i can understand $160/hr + to service classic exotics as they are a much more complicated system.  but not a basic little bmw.  shit if i was local id do it for less than half that if you supplied the parts lol. im not trying to knock the shop as im sure they do great work, its just that seems a bit extreme hourly wise

Edited February 13, 2016 by freedo

[jrkoupe]

Yes sounds reasonable. I regularly spend $2K/year to keep Vern driving like a new car, translates to $0.25 or less per mile. I prefer to pay professionals with the proper training and tools to do the work as they also guarantee their work for a year where I am. Here in Maine labor is about $80-120/hour depending on the shop.

2 k per year.....?

 

id have to give up ownership!

[adawil2002]

2 k per year.....?

 

id have to give up ownership!

 

Some years are less expensive than others. Last year was a suspension upgrade and overhaul.

[cda951]

$160/hr to work on a 2002 seems extremely high. i understand its a classic car but its a extremely easy vehicle to work on. i did all my front suspension bushings, rear suspension bushing, guibo bushing and trans mount bushing in under 5hrs. it was my first time doing any of that on the car. i can understand $160/hr + to service classic exotics as they are a much more complicated system. but not a basic little bmw. shit if i was local id do it for less than half that if you supplied the parts lol. im not trying to knock the shop as im sure they do great work, its just that seems a bit extreme hourly wise

I totally get your point about the 2002 being relatively simple to work on, but most shops that are competent with them happen to be high-end shops that also work on newer BMWs and other German/exotic cars that require extensive special equipment and training. It is extremely expensive to run a modern automotive shop (especially here in CA), and there are a number of fixed costs that need to be amortized (insurance, workers' comp, etc). It simply does not make sense to charge someone a lower labor rate because they drive a "simple" old car.

On the flip side, because 02s are pretty simple to work on, the labor hours charged tend to be less than on any newer BMWs. Valve adjustments, alternators, water pumps, etc are all pretty easy. Well, as long as it's not a horrible rust bucket and everything you touch breaks!

Because of the renewed interest in these cars, we have seen about a half-dozen new 02 customers in the last year or two. Most of these cars did require a somewhat hefty initial bill to get them safe and roadworthy, but since then none have needed much attention. The issues that have popped up have been minor, and have cost the customer next to nothing. Once these cars are dialed in, they tend to be pretty good (I can't say the same to a BMW V12 owner!). There will be typical old car issues, but that is part of its charm, right?

Again, I am glad that many of you guys tackle most of the work yourselves and learn new skills and bond with your cars. I am a car guy myself, and that is why I chose to do it for a living; I know a lot about these cars, but I learn something new every single day. Sometimes, though, I read a forum post on this and other boards about a guy pulling his hair out trying to figure out some strange running issue. Countless hours of trial and error and Internet research have been spent, and a number of parts have been replaced unnecessarily. Now, once the issue is finally sorted he may feel a great sense of accomplishment, but sometimes if you take it to a competent, honest shop with lots of experience, the issue will often be found and repaired in an hour or two. There can be a lot of value in that, even at $160/hr.........

Chris

Edited February 13, 2016 by cda951

[skipsfcr]

I'd invite anyone who'd like to die early of stress related illness to jump into this industry with both feet and try not to charge retail market prices for the parts and services they provide. Good luck with that.

[silasmoon]

I agree with a lot of the points Chris is making - I see it myself in my own line of work. "Why would I pay that?" The fact of the matter is that I don't have a shop or garage where I can leave a project overnight for me to tinker on it. I found a really good mechanic it seems (JP at A1 Autoworks in San Rafael). When I pulled in he had 5 2002's in the shop getting work done or being fully restored. His rates and labor were very competitive and he genuinely seemed liked he loved these cars. 

I don't get a lot of pleasure cursing and wishing I had the right tool and instead doing it poorly. I do enjoy tinkering with tuning though and driving said tuning very quickly around the California hills. 

Thank you to everyone on your thoughts and advice. More and more this forum acts as my own personal barometer for what to do. All of the inputs and opinions are invaluable! Cheers!

[JayMac]

As a guy that put three of my own businesses on the scrap heap I salute anyone that has the stones to hang their own shingle. I have a couple of shops that I send work to. Depends how messy the job is. When I started out with cars my tool box was hammer, pliers, checkbook.  I redid the suspension on my son's e36 and spent the money I saved on a scissors lift for my garage. I have tackled wheel bearings, engine swaps, and built my own track beast with the help of youtube, forums like this and a whole lot of extra time spent as I learned. Having shops that not only know me but are actually comfortable with my new found skill has proved to be very beneficial. 

 

+1 on the breaking it down to small jobs. Most of this is not hard. It will make sense once you get in there. Search out the job you are going to try and get a few different opinions. 

 

If it's a daily and you have to "have it done today"  get ready to bust out the dead presidents. That doesn't mean you are getting screwed but the mechanics time is the same regardless of cars. A good wrench is worth a ton! I always make sure my guys get cold brews when we are done as I drive 45 miles each way to the garage if they are getting it.

 

Not that they have ever complained but I spend a bit of time cleaning around where ever they will be working as on two of my projects it took a ton of clean up just to find the car buried under the gunk. Pertains more to a new purchase but if its an older car it is nice to get some of that goo off for the mechanic.

 

I just finished up the rear end and am starting the front now. So far so good and the guys here have helped a ton.  Do whatever  you think you can. Good luck and enjoy your car.