electrical and ignition Relays...round or square?

[visionaut]

Okay, I was curious (and bored) so i looked up BMW 2002 relays in the Bosch Automotive Tradition archives.

 

I must say it ended up being a bit unexpected, as the TL;DR is:   Bosch shows they only supplied Bosch Part # 0 332 014 406, the metal cube relay illustrated nicely above, aka the 406 Cube, for ALL 2002s (regular, tii, and turbo), incl Euro & USA models, from July 1973 through June 1976... 

 

Bosch doesn't show any Bosch relay usage at all from May 1971 through June 1973 produced BMW 2002s (though they show their other parts used on these models) - so maybe there was another 30A relay supplier to BMW for that period.  ??

 

So my opinion, since many above show BMW-branded Cubes, as well as un-branded or other-branded Cylinders, all stated to be 'originals', is that perhaps Hans & Franz might have used a mixed supply, from multiple suppliers, and what was provided to each final assembly line at a given time is what they used (maybe why some 'batches' of tii or Turbo have Cylinders?).  So Bosch may have supplied the 406 Cube to BMW to be used on EVERY post-June 1973 assembled BMW 2002 model, but it doesn't mean BMW exclusively used these Bosch Cubes. ??

ELSE --- only the 406 Cube relay is 'original' on ALL post-June 73 2002s.  And many will disagree with that.

 

Enjoy!

Tom

 

 

[avoirdupois]

8 hours ago, visionaut said:

I was curious (and bored) . . .

 

 

^^^^^   A lot of that going around.

 

The parts manual Sec. 16/61 lists various relays using the BMW part number.  Even though Bosch appears to have been the most common name associated with cube relays, there were no doubt many suppliers.  Hella seems to have been in the forefront of cylindrical style relays.  Regardless of relay style, their proximity to the normal battery location may have had a lot to do with their premature replacement.

 

Careless "shoehorning" a cumbersome battery in place could easily damage relays sitting at the top of the inner fender apron.  I am reminded that when the cars were new, not all batteries were equipped with integrated handles or carrying straps, and mechanics often muscled them in to place.  This may have provided some relays with added luster and replacement.  It takes little imagination to picture warranty work involving a battery removal that could easily involve unplugging a relay (or two or three) to avoid damaging them.  This might easily explain mixing and matching - even when the cars were still under warranty.  So, despite their best intentions, purists could be wrong about what is right.

 

 

Snug as a bug.

 

 

 

 

Room to vent.

 

 

 

 

 

Reading about frequent washer fluid reservoir replacements is not all that surprising either, especially considering their proximity to engine exhaust.  And, they do tend to get in the way for those who like to frequently remove spark plugs.  (Mine are still original.)  I recall an '02 that sported a Ford washer fluid reservoir "bag" and pump because, as the owner explained, he was tired of expending extra effort to protect the original "jug."   (I think he also had air horns that played Dixie.)  Maybe the factory improved things by moving the reservoir above the brake booster where overfilling and leaks could keep some of the brake components and frame rail "moist."
 

 

 

 

 

 

On a subject not as "readily changeable" as plug-in relays, has anyone established exactly which E10 production models had ignition coils installed near the firewall and distributor, versus a forward location opposite to the original battery location?   Just the later '75 and '76 models?

 

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2016 by avoirdupois

[visionaut]

Another tidbit - Hella doesn't list any Relays on their BMW 2002 Hella OEM Equipment list.  They show Regulators and Switches, but no relays, and Relays is a category they show with nothing for 2002s (OEM) shown under it.

 

So-o-o-o....  maybe 2002 Cylinder relays come from a different supplier (if OEM), or folks (or shipping/dealers) swapped in Hella Cylinder relays (quality & available)?

 

Hella - BMW 2002 Parts Report.pdf

[percy]

 

 

A familiar Hella relay?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[HBChris]

Even in 1974 BMW would not stock two different relays and let Fritz and Hans choose which to use, they were focused on just in time inventory even then, it's too costly to source two.  The round relays are all Hella, the name wears off but (silkscreened?) it was there.  I owned a new 74 and they were Hellas.  As to coils, they moved forward in the 75s and were black, hence the resistor wire.  Now you see the blue coils mostly, hope you removed the resistor wire though.

Edited October 16, 2016 by HBChris

[visionaut]

 So Hellas, even tho' they say they didn't, and Bosch, even tho' they said they did...

 

Cool... 

[Conserv]

2 hours ago, HBChris said:

....As to coils, they moved forward in the 75s and were black, hence the resistor wire....

 

And this move coincided with the relocation of the windshield washer reservoir from the right inner fender to atop the brake booster bracket (left side on LHD cars, I have no idea what happened on RHD cars).  Sounds like a chicken-or-the-egg question to me....

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

[MikeD]

12 hours ago, visionaut said:

 So Hellas, even tho' they say they didn't, and Bosch, even tho' they said they did...

 

Cool... 

Hella.....

 

[percy]

17 hours ago, HBChris said:

Even in 1974 BMW would not stock two different relays and let Fritz and Hans choose which to use, they were focused on just in time inventory even then, it's too costly to source two.  The round relays are all Hella, the name wears off but (silkscreened?) it was there.  I owned a new 74 and they were Hellas.  As to coils, they moved forward in the 75s and were black, hence the resistor wire.  Now you see the blue coils mostly, hope you removed the resistor wire though.

 

Agree with you, although there could be many exceptions to the rule, including parts availability, quality, design improvements and costs.   Many factors can affect assembly line speed.  If, as you suggest, the factory was "running a tight ship," when one parts bin was empty,  rather than delay production, they raided the next available bin.  And, if a different production line anticipated a slow down, due to sales or labor issues, that may have rendered certain otherwise unavailable parts - available.  So, it is always possible that when running out of blue Hella widgets, red Hella widgets are "borrowed" from another line.  In some cases, this "might" explain why some models received one style relay throughout an entire production run while others had comparable substitutes. 

Edited October 16, 2016 by percy

[Son of Marty]

30 minutes ago, percy said:

 

Agree with you, although there could be many exceptions to the rule, including parts availability, quality, design improvements and costs.   Many factors can affect assembly line speed.  If, as you suggest, the factory was "running a tight ship," when one parts bin was empty,  rather than delay production, they raided the next available bin.  And, if a different production line anticipated a slow down, due to sales or labor issues, that may have rendered certain otherwise unavailable parts - available.  So, it is always possible that when running out of blue Hella widgets, red Hella widgets are "borrowed" from another line.  In some cases, this "might" explain why some models received one style relay throughout an entire production run while others had comparable substitutes. 

I think your on track here, relays of this type were standardized as square type because they take up less room and can be "stacked" much closer together around the time of the first electronic fuel injection came to be common in production. If there were supply problems (and I seem to remember 74 was a big strike year in Germany) the cars with F/I would probably get priority for the squares and the carb cars could get by with the rounds.

[avoirdupois]

30 minutes ago, Son of Marty said:

I think your on track here, relays of this type were standardized as square type because they take up less room and can be "stacked" much closer together around the time of the first electronic fuel injection came to be common in production. If there were supply problems (and I seem to remember 74 was a big strike year in Germany) the cars with F/I would probably get priority for the squares and the carb cars could get by with the rounds.

 

 

 

Old school fuel injected (DJet) E9s may have been the exception since, that design probably predated the need for extreme space saving.  On the other hand, E12s, E21s, E24s and the like (L-Jet) clearly seemed to optimize space.

 

E12

 

 

 

E21

 

Edited October 16, 2016 by avoirdupois

[MikeD]

2 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

I think your on track here, relays of this type were standardized as square type because they take up less room and can be "stacked" much closer together around the time of the first electronic fuel injection came to be common in production. If there were supply problems (and I seem to remember 74 was a big strike year in Germany) the cars with F/I would probably get priority for the squares and the carb cars could get by with the rounds.

Except mine is a 74tii and I have round.  What we need is to find original factory/dealer 1974 2002 brochure/literature to see if there are any round relays shown in pictures.

[Conserv]

14 hours ago, MikeD said:

Except mine is a 74tii and I have round.  What we need is to find original factory/dealer 1974 2002 brochure/literature to see if there are any round relays shown in pictures.

 

Mike,

 

I have all the English language brochures for the '74 through '76 cars and, as has been noted above, there are no underhood shots, just standalone engine photos.  The next step would be to look for period magazine road tests of square taillight cars.  There must be a few out there!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited October 17, 2016 by Conserv

[avoirdupois]

4 hours ago, Conserv said:

 

Mike,

 

I have all the English language brochures for the '74 through '76 cars and, as has been noted above, there are no underhood shots, just standalone engine photos.  The next step would be to look for magazine road tests of square taillight cars.  There must be a few out there!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

I think you might have a better shot by looking through early Roundels.

 

The problem with contemporary magazine articles and pictures is that they rarely disclose when they were written, versus their publication dates.   Also, cars furnished for tests were not always the same models that hit the showroom floors and some of the information provided .  .  .  was like the internet today.  Factory and Dealer literature would be far more reliable, but even that was subject to change.  And remember, different markets had differences, some of which were not widely known.   Chris and others with personal experience and clear memories (if not photographs) possibly provide the best evidence of what and when something was produced.  Restoration guide authors certainly have plenty of knowledge, but it is only as good as their primary sources, some of which . . . may be like the internet and are .  .  . anecdotal.

 

 

 

 

 

Would a pedant show Judge deduct for the existence of a snorkel on a one-owner tii with no evidence of body work and original paint?

 

I profess little knowledge concerning the seemingly infinitesimal details of later production models.  I did briefly own a low mileage '75 that I vaguely recall having one or two Hella relays.  I also remember comparing the engine bay with a turbo model at a rare parking lot encounter.  (The owner did not go for the even trade.)  This was one of the reasons for the posted turbo images, most of which strongly suggest that those models used the Hellas.  Naturally, Turbo models may have received special treatment, but not necessarily when it came to relays ordinare.

 

It may be worth noting that in several images of early models there is only one relay next to the voltage regulator.  The relay was fastened to the inner fender apron with two screws.  They were not merely "snapped"  or "slid" into place.  Later models had an additional metal bracket or brace that was spot welded to the fender and it held the female modular connections, that were slid into place.  I also suggested the possibility that unbeknownst to an original owner, a relay or relays could have been changed in seconds, when a car, still under warranty, was at the dealer for normal service or warranty service.  As unlikely as this occurrence may seem, stranger things have been known to happen.  I heard of one instance where a car was delivered with four steel wheels but the spare was aluminum.  I also know of a '74 square tail light model that was sold new with a '73 three spoke steering wheel.  And then there is the picture of the newly delivered 02 with the wing wiper on the passenger side.  All of this leads to an iffy conclusion that the cylindrical relays probably saw most use through '74, and sporadic use through the end of the model run.  As Chris noted, E9s (and probably E3s) continued to use the cylindrical relays through the end of that production run.  However, that does not mean there weren't exceptions for the few models sold in Sweden, Portugal or .  .  .  Tibet. 

Edited October 17, 2016 by avoirdupois

[MikeD]

11 hours ago, avoirdupois said:

 

I think you might have a better shot by looking through early Roundels.

 

The problem with contemporary magazine articles and pictures is that they rarely disclose when they were written, versus their publication dates.   Also, cars furnished for tests were not always the same models that hit the showroom floors and some of the information provided .  .  .  was like the internet today.  Factory and Dealer literature would be far more reliable, but even that was subject to change.  And remember, different markets had differences, some of which were not widely known.   Chris and others with personal experience and clear memories (if not photographs) possibly provide the best evidence of what and when something was produced.  Restoration guide authors certainly have plenty of knowledge, but it is only as good as their primary sources, some of which . . . may be like the internet and are .  .  . anecdotal.

 

 

 

 

 

Would a pedant show Judge deduct for the existence of a snorkel on a one-owner tii with no evidence of body work and original paint?

 

I profess little knowledge concerning the seemingly infinitesimal details of later production models.  I did briefly own a low mileage '75 that I vaguely recall having one or two Hella relays.  I also remember comparing the engine bay with a turbo model at a rare parking lot encounter.  (The owner did not go for the even trade.)  This was one of the reasons for the posted turbo images, most of which strongly suggest that those models used the Hellas.  Naturally, Turbo models may have received special treatment, but not necessarily when it came to relays ordinare.

 

It may be worth noting that in several images of early models there is only one relay next to the voltage regulator.  The relay was fastened to the inner fender apron with two screws.  They were not merely "snapped"  or "slid" into place.  Later models had an additional metal bracket or brace that was spot welded to the fender and it held the female modular connections, that were slid into place.  I also suggested the possibility that unbeknownst to an original owner, a relay or relays could have been changed in seconds, when a car, still under warranty, was at the dealer for normal service or warranty service.  As unlikely as this occurrence may seem, stranger things have been known to happen.  I heard of one instance where a car was delivered with four steel wheels but the spare was aluminum.  I also know of a '74 square tail light model that was sold new with a '73 three spoke steering wheel.  And then there is the picture of the newly delivered 02 with the wing wiper on the passenger side.  All of this leads to an iffy conclusion that the cylindrical relays probably saw most use through '74, and sporadic use through the end of the model run.  As Chris noted, E9s (and probably E3s) continued to use the cylindrical relays through the end of that production run.  However, that does not mean there weren't exceptions for the few models sold in Sweden, Portugal or .  .  .  Tibet. 

 

Thanks.....and thanks to all who helped with this thread.....Mike