electrical and ignition Relays...round or square?

[visionaut]

Mike, I thought I was helping, even tho the info I found was the opposite of what you wanted to hear( and not what I was expecting either).

 

You'd like someone to show you Cylinder relays were OEM on 74s. I showed you Bosch 406 Cubes were claimed by Bosch as OEM on 74s (all 7/73 and up). And that Bosch was NOT the Relay supplier from 5/71 to 6/73 (but I don't know who was, or the shape of those relays).  So I checked one likely source, Hella, but Hella claims no Hella relays were OEM on 2002s. (Could they have been but Hella didn't claim it?, possibly). So I hit a dead end, unless someone can name/show relays from other potential OEMs...

 

For a Concours, I would think the Bosch 'evidence' I cited from Bosch Automotive Tradition would be sufficient to run the Bosch 406 Cubes in your 74 as valid OEM items. I don't know if it's also likely enough 'evidence' that some might be able to say running a Hella Cylinder, while period-correct, isn't OEM (and perhaps a deduction).  But to me the complete story isn't still clear...

 

Tom

[MikeD]

21 minutes ago, visionaut said:

Mike, I thought I was helping, even tho the info I found was the opposite of what you wanted to hear( and not what I was expecting either).

 

You'd like someone to show you Cylinder relays were OEM on 74s. I showed you Bosch 406 Cubes were claimed by Bosch as OEM on 74s (all 7/73 and up). And that Bosch was NOT the Relay supplier from 5/71 to 6/73 (but I don't know who was, or the shape of those relays).  So I checked one likely source, Hella, but Hella claims no Hella relays were OEM on 2002s. (Could they have been but Hella didn't claim it?, possibly). So I hit a dead end, unless someone can name/show relays from other potential OEMs...

 

For a Concours, I would think the Bosch 'evidence' I cited from Bosch Automotive Tradition would be sufficient to run the Bosch 406 Cubes in your 74 as valid OEM items. I don't know if it's also likely enough 'evidence' that some might be able to say running a Hella Cylinder, while period-correct, isn't OEM (and perhaps a deduction).  But to me the complete story isn't still clear...

 

Tom

Tom,

 

You certainly did help me a lot.  I think the easiest thing to do is to put on a set of square relays so there will be no problems.  I just wanted to be sure which ones were correct and I think we can say that this is about 95% conclusive.   I will still keep investigating until the last 5% is explained

 

Mike

[Conserv]

On 10/13/2016 at 2:00 PM, MikeD said:

Steve, Tom

Thanks for your info.  I think the best answer is that BMW used what they had at the time.  My square relay picture is off of a completely original 74tii bought at 8000 miles and owned by him since them. The round relay picture is off of my 74tii (I am the original owner)  which, supposedly are the relays that came with the car, cleaned up when it was restored.  I am trying to determine if they were cleaned up or new ones were put on.  There are no date codes on the round ones.  I just need which one is really correct or are both correct.  I realize I am just being a little anal-retentive over this but would like to know.

 

Mike

 

 

Mike,

 

What's your tii's manufacturing date, and do you happen to know the manufacturing date -- or VIN -- of that other tii with square relays?  The '74 tii year is an odd one, stretching from November 1973 through December 1974.  And the final few months of the U.S. '74 tii production -- occurring while 1975 U.S. model 2002's were already in production -- thus display some anomalies such as the transition from '74-style to '75-'76-style seats, trapezoid to flag-style rearview mirrors.  Maybe there is a transition very late in 1974 (recognizing that Chris's November 1974-manufactured 1975 model came with cylindrical relays)?

 

Where's forum member OriginalOwner?  Let's see what Carl's one-owner '74 tii has in the way of relays!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Edited October 17, 2016 by Conserv

['76mintgrün'02]

15 minutes ago, Conserv said:

Where's forum member Original owner?

 

if I had to guess...

or

Edited October 17, 2016 by '76Mintgrun'02

[HBChris]

Steve, Now we can debate the trap vs flag mirror issue!  LOL

 

(My 75 has one trap mirror, I think flags were introduced in 1976 for the 2002.  E9s never had flags but since our cars only came with a driver side mirror, when you wanted a passenger mirror later on only flags were available.  Almost every e9 you see has flags due to this and I think the same happened with 2002s.)

[MikeD]

2 hours ago, Conserv said:

 

 

Mike,

 

What's your tii's manufacturing date, and do you happen to know the manufacturing date -- or VIN -- of that other tii with square relays?  The '74 tii year is an odd one, stretching from November 1973 through December 1974.  And the final few months of the U.S. '74 tii production -- occurring while 1975 U.S. model 2002's were already in production -- thus display some anomalies such as the transition from '74-style to '75-'76-style seats, trapezoid to flag-style rearview mirrors.  Maybe there is a transition very late in 1974 (recognizing that Chris's November 1974-manufactured 1975 model came with cylindrical relays)?

 

Where's forum member OriginalOwner?  Let's see what Carl's one-owner '74 tii has in the way of relays!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Steve...here is my 74tii's info...I dont know the other 74tti's info....

The BMW 2002 tii US VIN 2782393 was manufactured on July 16th, 1974 and delivered on August 12th, 1974 to the BMW importer Hoffman Motors Corp. in New York City. The original colour was Amazaonsgrün, paint code 076.

We hope this information is helpful for you.

Yours sincerely,

Julia Oberndörfer

 

[Conserv]

4 hours ago, HBChris said:

Steve, Now we can debate the trap vs flag mirror issue!  LOL

 

(My 75 has one trap mirror, I think flags were introduced in 1976 for the 2002.  E9s never had flags but since our cars only came with a driver side mirror, when you wanted a passenger mirror later on only flags were available.  Almost every e9 you see has flags due to this and I think the same happened with 2002s.)

 

Oh no, Chris: yet another controversial detail!  ?

 

And I believe the flag mirror was introduced at the very end of the 1974 calendar year, appearing on a few, but certainly not all, early '75's, but becoming ubiquitous during the 1975 calendar year!

 

And as trap mirrors were broken, and as people realized the flag mirror was measurably larger -- and hence a "better" rear view mirror -- flag mirrors became the standard replacement on '02's from 1966 through 1976!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2016 by Conserv

['76mintgrün'02]

I opened up a few to see how different they look under the covers. 

Then weighed them just for fun (without their covers).

The one on the right is a five pronger.

(The weights are in grams).

Does anyone have a photo of the inside of a cylindrical style relay?

 

['76mintgrün'02]

It is interesting to contemplate when parts are imprOved and when they are made 'cheaper'.  Heavy seems good... more copper?

 

There seem to be three relay options, plastic cubes, galvie cubes and cylinders.

(the Italian Cadmium cube is from an e21)

 

The plastic ones are the easiest to open, using just your fingers.

The others require a small screwdriver, or something similar.  I found that pinching the metal covers back to a skinny cube, prior to snapping it back on, then recrimping the detents, makes it hard to tell they have ever been opened.  

 

Water seems like the enemy, in terms of relay failure and the metal covers would provide better protection, since the plastic ones are a bit brittle.  I can appreciate originality, but am personally a bit flexible in that department.  I find myself wondering which are the BEST relays?  My vote is for the heavier galvie cube... which is what I have installed.  

 

Oh, I do also have a five prong #401 20/30A relay which was made in Germany (not dated).  

 

There is something about seeing GERMANY on BMW parts makes me happy, so I swapped it out for the Spanish one.  I am okay with running a Spanish Weber though.

Tom

[avoirdupois]

 

With a special thank you to Chargin.

 

 

Experts on the subject?   (Could not resist.)

 

 

Even the wheels?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

['76mintgrün'02]

Unrestored '76  ( Mint condition )

not surprising, plastic, dated, cube relays; like the ones in my '76.

 

and this is an unrestored '75 (photo credit to Roadhog0)

 

I just noticed that this car has the battery in backwards... or, it is a backwards battery, but it may explain why BMW put that little plastic insert in that corner.  Positive is dAngerously close to the body back there (or tucked safely away in the corner, depending on how you look at it).

 

(couple of fine looking air cleaners in those photos)

(vac adv./ret. dist. '75, vac adv. dist. '76)

(different fuel pumps, my '76 had one like the '75 above)

 

 

[MikeD]

So we have seen Round, Square Metal and Square Plastic relays in cars that are all original and not restored.  I guess I am going to print this entire topic out and keep a copy in my glove compartment

[Conserv]

45 minutes ago, MikeD said:

So we have seen Round, Square Metal and Square Plastic relays in cars that are all original and not restored.  I guess I am going to print this entire topic out and keep a copy in my glove compartment

 

Yes, but there my be SOME limitations on "correctness".  For instance, I've never seen round relays on an ostensibly-original 1976 and I've never seen square plastic relays on an ostensibly-original 1974.

 

The square plastic relays, at least, based on examples seen thus far, are dated.  Currently, the range of dates seen on these relays is from August 1975 ("8/75") through June 1976 ("6/76").  Can we expand that range or develop a range of dates for the square metal relays?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited October 26, 2016 by Conserv

[avoirdupois]

2 hours ago, '76Mintgrun'02 said:

and this is an unrestored '75 (photo credit to Roadhog0)

 

I just noticed that this car has the battery in backwards... or, it is a backwards battery, but it may explain why BMW put that little plastic insert in that corner.  Positive is dangerously close to the body back there (or tucked safely away in the corner, depending on how you look at it).

 

 

 

 

You raise a couple of interesting observations.  Over the years, on my early models, I managed to fit all sorts of batteries in the tray that were not on the "recommended" list.  One battery was so long that it abutted the forward tip of the master cylinder.   Some of these batteries had oddball terminal configurations too, including the GM-style side terminals.  Of course none of these oddballs would have won any points for originality, although with tongue-in-cheek, they were period correct.

 

Reference to the corner plastic is something (probably) easily overlooked.  I had one that came from a '76, installed on a '73.  Although it added protection from inadvertent shorting, in my case, it may have eliminated an unwanted whistle caused by incoming air  over some of the battery caps.  I wondered at the time whether the plastic corner didn't protect the battery from more-than-necessary exposure to oncoming air and water.  (Without the plastic, the leading edge of some unsealed batteries seemed to be in the direct line of fire during hard driving in inclement weather.  (Yes, I am aware that the '02's underhood climate is no paragon of protection from the elements.)  Back to the subject of arcing avoidance, I have mostly used some purpose-made terminal boots or covered quick release connections.  Old radiator hose or heater hose would probably serve the same function.

 

 

 

 

On the subject of originality, the washer fluid reservoir pictured above might not have its original cap.  I have also seen the tube containing the spark plug leads mounted over (rather than to the side) of the valve cover.  From personal experience, those "tubes" only seemed to be used on later E10 models.  However, a February 1970 article depicts an M30 with "the tube" and the over-the-valve-cover configuration.  Like relays, rims and tires, changes are quick, easy and reversible.  There is probably room for friendly argument too.

 

              

Edited October 26, 2016 by avoirdupois

[Conserv]

17 hours ago, avoirdupois said:

....I have also seen the tube containing the spark plug leads mounted over (rather than to the side) of the valve cover.            

 

+1

 

I believe the spark plug wires were generally supported over the valve cover, not "outboard" as shown here.  Examples of this include, below:

 

1. January 1971 2000tii touring (factory photo),

2. 1975 2002 (1975 U.S. brochure), and

3. My 1976 (photo taken August 1983)

 

The application of the spark plug wire "tube" is, at best, unclear to me.  And does its design force a reversal of the "over-the-valve-cover" approach?  It certainly appears in the parts catalogue, and I believe some '02's were so-equipped from the factory.  But when was it factory equipment?  After people saw the tube used on Big Sixes and e21's -- and it is a tidy solution -- lots of '02 owners retro-fitted the tubes to '02's.  So I really don't know today when the tubes are original and when they are retro-fits!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited October 27, 2016 by Conserv