Tips/Help on a 74 Tii I'm buying

[kungfooren]

Hi all,

 

Very new to the community as I'm in the process of buying my first 2002. So the car I'm looking at is a 1974 BMW 2002 Tii being sold at an estate sale (some of you may know of it). That being said, I can't exactly talk to the last owner--rest his soul. Great overall condition and my favorite color (Fjord Blue). Long story short, the VIN (428--) that it's been registered with is NOT from a TII! The non-tii title VIN matches that on the dash/steering column. The chassis plate has been removed (see pic). The stamp on the chassis fender, however, is that of a tii (278---). It's almost as if they swapped the dash but decided to use the VIN from the dash and removed the chassis plate instead... I ran a VINAUDIT on both numbers (the 278----) cannot be found and the 428--- does come up. Car has plates/tags and last registration was 2016.

I've seen the original bill of sale from 1983 which has the non-tii VIN. It's been insured and titled fine throughout the years but I'm sure the non matching numbers affects the market value a lot. So what is a car that's functionally and according to the fender stamping a TII but is missing the metal chassis plate and has a non Tii dash swap ultimately worth? And has been titled with a non-tii VIN. Assume that it's very clean, no rust, runs and drives. I just want to enjoy the car but when it comes time to sell, how will the market view the car?

 

Thanks so much for any suggestions/tips/comments.

 

 

my reference:

http://classicregister.com/id-guides/how-identify-1971-1975-bmw-02-series-2002-tii-coupe

[Son of Marty]

Well the one thing that would stand out to show if it was a originalTii or a regular 2002 converted to a Tii would be the timing notch it should be machine cut half moon right in front of the heater all 73 and 74 had these. If it's a Tii it would be worth more than a converted 02 but if it's a converted 02 with all the Tii goodies it's still worth having all though it would never rise to Tii value assuming a knowledgeable buyer.

[John_in_VA]

That dash pad over the steering column is easily changed - perhaps the old/original one was lost or ratty.  It's not part of the dashboard itself.

Did you check to see what the engine block VIN was?

There are a number of threads relating to number-matching vs. non- & values.  Try a search (upper tight corner of each page).

 

PS - I hadn't see the Classic Register site - there's a photo of my Chamonix '74 tii along with Bill W.'s touring (parked in the showroom) included in their gallery.

Edited March 12, 2017 by John_in_VA

[lilmo]

Why not provide the entire VIN?  Maybe someone here knows the car and could give you the low-down.

 

[Conserv]

Well, at best, it will probably never achieve tii values as it sits.  That said, let's examine it some more.

 

As Son of Marty asked above, is there a "firewall notch" at the mid-point of the upper lip of the firewall, just above the engine's bellhousing?  Search on "firewall notch" if you need more information.  I'm guessing the car has one.  Second, on the engine side of the left front inner fender, are there two body-color brackets to support the tii air cleaner housing?  I'm guessing there are.  And underneath the rear of the car, just to the right side of the differential and just forward of the fuel tank, is there a fuel pump bracket mounted to the underside of the trunk floor?  I'm guessing there is.  Those indicia, assuming my guesses are correct and consistent, along with the VERY compelling VIN stamped into the right front inner fender, say the chassis left the factory as a tii.

 

The riveted-on metal VIN tag, also found on the right front inner fender, is sometimes replaced during restorations, especially where the black paint on the metal VIN tag is missing -- I don't know that this VIN tag was removed for replacement; I have no idea why it was removed.  Replacement VIN tags can be made from blanks for sale through various parts dealers.  Maybe the car acquired a salvage title at a time when it took very little damage to achieve such status.  The owner could have purchased a wrecked or rusted non-tii and registered the car under the 428xxxx VIN, at a  time when the "tii premium" was negligible.  Or the car was stolen, or the tii's title was simply lost, at a time when an owner didn't want to go through the process of obtaining a replacement.  And sometimes people simply exhibit bad judgement!

 

When you send an email to BMW Archives (info.grouparchiv@bmwgroup.com), with both VIN's, and request their data on the cars, what do their records show?  Is 278xxxx a Fjord tii?  What color is the present interior?

 

On the left door, on the rear-facing panel, is a paper label with the VIN and manufacturing date (photo below).  Does the car still have that?  What does it say?  And, as John mentioned, what is the engine number?

 

If....the car had nothing more than the title and steering column VIN tag with the 428xxxx designation, but had the chassis VIN, door tag, and matching engine number showing the 278xxxx designation, I'd talk to my state's DMV (or a car title specialist) and see if it's possible to revert to the original tii VIN.  Of course, speaking with the DMV may also open you up to losing the car if it turns out to have been stolen ca. 1982.  But frankly, I don't believe there are any remaining information systems that can track 7-digit VIN's!

 

To be clear, a car with conflicting registration VIN's is not worth the lesser of the two cars' values.  It's worth less than the lesser car's value due to the ambiguity.  If you're getting the car for a great price, is it a problem that it might always sell for less than the value of an otherwise equivalent 428xxxx car?  Frankly, if it had 278xxxx indicia beyond just the stamped-in chassis VIN -- and maybe even if it just had the stamped-in chassis VIN -- I'd probably look at the feasibility of re-titling it under the 278xxxx VIN.  I recognize, of course, that might be impossible in many states.  But perhaps worth a try...

 

Good luck,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Conserv

[TobyB]

Ren, where are you?

 

Different states have very different procedures concerning this, so it helps a lot to know which one you'll be dealing with...

 

...for example, in Washington, transferring a car with a lost title and a dead previous owner is particularly difficult, I found out.

 

t

 

[kungfooren]

Hey all,

 

thanks for all the comments!

non-tii VIN (under which car is titled): 4280471

tii VIN stamped on fender: 2780368

 

Car is titled and registered in CT, but my plan was to ship to and title in CA where I'm moving.

 

Looks like there is a notch.

Edited March 12, 2017 by kungfooren

[jgerock]

I can see the tii specific air cleaner. It's an early 74 based on the VIN.  Does it have a round tube welded near the right of the radiator?

[kungfooren]

I thought it over a lot last night and am leanings towards walking away. For $11k, I was getting a great deal on a Tii. However, with a non matching engine (receipts show a $5k Tii engine swap) and non Tii VIN conflicts, I think market value is under $10k. Will think it over a little more. 

 

I would love to somehow retitle under the chassis VIN but feel that may be a pain to do in California.

[NYNick]

Check your engine number VIN number to prove it's non-matching.

At $11K, you can hardly lose. But I'm betting that paint job is hiding a lot of Connecticut rust.

[02Les]

FWIW - The car was for sale in CT in the Roundel Magazine back in 2002. The VIN noted as 4280471, but the Seller stated it was a tii.

[Conserv]

2 hours ago, NYNick said:

Check your engine number VIN number to prove it's non-matching.

At $11K, you can hardly lose. But I'm betting that paint job is hiding a lot of Connecticut rust.

 

And I, Nick, think that $11K is a lot of money for a tii shell, with a terrible paint job, and a non-tii title.  I was thinking "good buy" at $7K if rust is not an issue!

 

If someone can get this shell re-titled under its tii VIN, I'd value it as a tii.  But I may also be an atypically-tough customer!

 

In the first photo in the original post, the photo of the right inner fender and plenum that shows where the metal riveted-on VIN tag originally WAS, the firewall, where its end is welded to the inner fender, appears to have a break, from fatigue or an accident.  If yes, not a good sign.  And just forward of the broken firewall lip is a crude bondo patch under the newer paint.  What is that body patching?  Rust?

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

Edited March 12, 2017 by Conserv

[NYNick]

I always defer to your opinion Steve.

I was assuming, per your earlier response, that it was a Tii. If the engine is non-matching, that would be a big hit. If there's CT rust under that bad paint, another big hit. 

There are a lot of red flags that need to be run down.

[Conserv]

9 hours ago, kungfooren said:

Hey all,

 

thanks for all the comments!

non-tii VIN (under which car is titled): 4280471

tii VIN stamped on fender: 2780368

 

Car is titled and registered in CT, but my plan was to ship to and title in CA where I'm moving.

 

Looks like there is a notch.

 

VIN 4280471 was a U.S. 1974 model 2002A (automatic), probably manufactured around January 1974.  I suspect 4280471 was in "parts" condition by 1983.

 

VIN 2780368 is a U.S. 1974 model 2002tii, manufactured in November or December 1973.  As Jim says, it was an early 1974 model tii.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[Conserv]

39 minutes ago, NYNick said:

I always defer to your opinion Steve.

I was assuming, per your earlier response, that it was a Tii. If the engine is non-matching, that would be a big hit. If there's CT rust under that bad paint, another big hit. 

There are a lot of red flags that need to be run down.

 

And, Nick, it really is a tii, even without the original engine.  If DMV's were willing to look at all the facts and allow one to re-title it under 2780368, it would trade at full tii values, even with full disclosure of its colorful titling history.

 

But I'm not convinced that most DMV's care to examine the many facts that prove this is largely VIN 2780368 -- you could theoretically show the BMW Archives reports for the (a.) tii chassis, (b.) 2002A, and (c.) the replacement engine, and show, through features and dates on the car, that it is largely VIN 2780368 -- but would rely, instead, on their own shortcut measures, perhaps even assigning a new, third VIN to the car!

 

I personally suspect the car acquired a salvage title -- because of minor or severe damage -- and a prior owner decided to refresh the title by swapping over a single VIN tag from a rusted out or wrecked 2002A!  He could have easily filled in the old chassis VIN, but I don't think he even realized it was there!  We're looking at a home-made VIN swap by an amateur.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited March 12, 2017 by Conserv