Garage Find 74tii Engine VIN bummer

[73tiiDavidPA]

Hello All,

 

Just got around to cleaning off the checking the engine VIN on the 74tii I bought a couple of weeks ago.... and bummer, not the original engine.... and actually not even a tii block from what I can tell.  

 

Engine VIN 2365048 (comes from a July - Dec 74 non-tii car)

Dash pad  / Tag / Fender stamp : 2782257

 

Now, this is a "snorkel" car, but I'm sure its a real tii - all the other Vins, firewall notch and bracket in the rear for the fuel pump.  

 

Two questions - 

 

1. What should I next be looking for to see if this non-tii block was correctly upgraded to a tii?

(things I know to peak at, or have found with a little research)

 - oil return line on the intake side of the block for the injection pump

 - extra fitting in oil filter head for injection pump oil feed

 - without removing the head is there any way to check if I have the correct raised flat top pistons?

 - anything else I should be looking for? 

 

2. This car will never be a show car, but will make a nice 74tii (snorkel) for someone, someday.  I'm bummed about not having the original engine though.  Any thoughts on what type of hit on value this will cause?  I'm hoping that while not 100% stock or original it could still fetch 10k+ as a nice driver with a 5 speed conversion and sunroof.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dorwoon]

Tii struts? Brakes?

[Mike Self]

It would make sense that if the engine currently has all the tii injection parts--and either runs or has run with that engine installed, it confirms that at least the external tii stuff is all in place.  My suspicion is that a PO suffered some sort of catastrophic failure to the original block that wasn't repairable, so transferred all the tii hardware to a non-tii block; if he had bought a new factory reman short block, it wouldn't have a "normal" VIN.  

 

And unless someone robbed the car of it's tii-unique running gear, it should still be there.  Once you have it up and running, it'll be a "real" tii, just with a different and non-original block.  But the 278xxxx VIN proclaims the car as a real tii.  

 

mike

[wegweiser]

tiis had either "bathtub" pistons (for 121 head) or "piano" pistons for E12 head. None had flat top pistons. 

 

As a guy that used to professionally sell parts in the late 1980s-2006 or so, I can tell you that 90% of the pistons sold and installed in that period were tii ones, fitted as an upgrade to non tii cars. That means that there's a good chance those pistons in the engine are tii spec. Euro or US tii compression? That's anybody's guess.

[Son of Marty]

I would guess at today's prices and a knowledgeable owner the non matching block would cost you somewhere around 10 % of a 100 point car if someone was going to show it, otherwise it's a legitimate Tii and would make a excellent driver. now if you want to dump it please PM me right away 

[73tiiDavidPA]

10 minutes ago, mike said:

the 278xxxx VIN proclaims the car as a real tii.  

 

Thanks Mike, yes I have no doubt that it an original tii - you gotta love that some records survived.

 

Born the Germany and raised in SC!  I wonder how many BMWs were running about down here back then... and if they knew / foreshadowed the coming of the mother-ship in Greenville.

 

Anyway, looks like the original owner bought it and put about 40,000 miles in the first 2 years, and 60,000 in just over three years!

 

Lincoln-Mercury in Charlotte did the pre-delivery check, but it was sold and serviced at the Lincoln-Mercury in Greenville, SC.  

 

And while Century Lincoln-Mercury no longer exists, Century BMW does, and their website says they've been in business for 40 years... (I'll have to phone them tomorrow).     

 

 

[Conserv]

On 3/16/2017 at 10:20 PM, Son of Marty said:

I would guess at today's prices and a knowledgeable owner the non matching block would cost you somewhere around 10 % of a 100 point car if someone was going to show it, otherwise it's a legitimate Tii and would make a excellent driver. now if you want to dump it please PM me right away 

 

+1

 

IF.....you're dealing with an otherwise 100-point car, and I've never seen a 100-point '02.  Lots of non-tii engines have found their way into tii's.  Why?  Not only was NO ONE talking about "matching number '02's" ten, twenty, thirty years ago, even today owners knowingly swap out -- and sell or discard -- their car's original '02 engine blocks.  I believe for what you're trying to do with this particular car, there's little if any "value hit" associated with the non-original engine block.  That's my view.

 

Think of your own experience.  You are obviously a "car guy": two '02's, a DS21!  Yet you purchased a vintage car without inspecting the engine number.  I'd venture that most '02 buyers similarly don't bother to look at the engine number before a purchase.  Why?  Because it's just not important to most '02 owners.   Period.

 

E12 head?  What's the casting date?  How about the casting dates on the intake plenum (accumulator) and the aluminum runners?  I'm curious whether the original head and injection system were simply swapped over after -- as has already been posited by Mike -- a major failure of the original block.

 

Lastly, the '02 owners I met during the '70's -- myself included -- put LOTS of miles on their '02's during those years.  We bought the cars to drive them, and we drove them even more than we imagined we would.  That's another reason I'm so doubtful of many seller's claims: 90% swear the '02 they're selling has not passed 100,000 miles -- with no evidence to support that claim.  Hmm...

 

(By the way, the Columbia BMW 2002 Club site is showing the block, 2365048, as from a January to July 1975 car.)

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Conserv

[02Les]

FWIW

2365048 - for sale in the Roundel in 2004 and was in CT. Car manufactured very late April or early May 1975.

[Mike Self]

2 hours ago, Conserv said:

Lastly, the '02 owners I met during the '70's -- not to mention myself -- put LOTS of miles on their '02's during those years.  They/we bought the cars to drive them, and they/we drove them even more than imagined.

 

We bought my '69 new on 4 May 1969 in Queens, NY; by September we had 10,000 miles on the odometer after vacation trips through New England and Quebec, down to Florida and then a move to Ohio.  By the time I returned from Vietnam in November 1971 the car had 40,000 miles, as it was Carol's daily driver while I was gone, plus a trip to New York to visit her relatives.  So yeah, we drove 'em a lot!

 

mike

[73tiiDavidPA]

1 hour ago, 02Les said:

FWIW

2365048 - for sale in the Roundel in 2004 and was in CT. Car manufactured very late April or early May 1975.

 

... ok - gotta love your search ability, certainly your Google is better than mine, or you have all the Roundels scanned in somehow.  Any chance you would share your trick?  I'd also love to attempt to reach out to the number in the ad to see if its still a valid number / previous owner I could find more information from.  

[KFunk]

FYI, USB borescopes are super cheap now (~$15) and you can easily check out the pistons by looking down the spark plug hole.  I've got this one and it's pretty sweet for how cheap it was.  Don't use the included software/spyware, and just download a generic program like Oasis.  https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01MQE51DN/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Edited March 17, 2017 by KFunk

[Mark92131]

3 hours ago, 73tiiDavidPA said:

 

 

My bad, thought you wanted the VIN Decoder...

 

https://www.bmwclasicos.com/servicios.php#Como

 

Mark92131

Edited March 17, 2017 by Mark92131

[Conserv]

Off topic, certainly, David, but do I spy two square plastic relays on your tii's relay rack (first photo), next to a more common square metal relay?  If so, I've traditionally associated the square plastic relays -- tan-gray and, generally, discoloring with age -- with '76 cars.  Mine, for instance, are dated July 1975 ("8/75"), October 1975 ("10/75"), and April 1976 ("4/76") -- see the second through fifth photos attached.  Sometime, please shoot me the dates on your two examples.  Obviously, relays failed periodically, so yours -- if they are the square plastic style -- could post-date the car's manufacture.  But I'd love to understand when these square plastic relays began and ended.

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Conserv

[Glen Karr]

Steve,

I have a '74' Tii built in late April 74, purchased by me in July 74.  It has the round can type relays which I know are original.

Glen

[Conserv]

4 hours ago, Glen Karr said:

Steve,

I have a '74' Tii built in late April 74, purchased by me in July 74.  It has the round can type relays which I know are original.

Glen

 

Yes, but....Glen!

 

The last time we poked around this subject -- I'm guessing it was 6 months ago and I think that you participated -- I thought the BIG CONCLUSION, for '74 models, was that '74's came from the factory with round relays unless...they happen to come with square relays.  The factory didn't care, buyers didn't care, BMW stuck in whatever they had on hand as the car rolled down the line.  Round relays predominated in 1974, but did not account for 100% of the production.  Based on that conclusion -- or, at least, my perception of that conclusion -- I was guessing that either 1 or 2 of David's relays might be original, and regardless if any were original, I was hoping to collect their dates.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited March 18, 2017 by Conserv