1968 only colors?

[FunElan]

I must be wearing orthopedic shoes because I stand corrected. A while back I had read some color chart that indicated what models came in what colors. Under caribe it said "1600, 2002ti." That was why i originally thought it was a 1600 color that didn't come on a 2002. That German delivery example is very interesting! Caribe was then replaced by riviera later on. 

[mo02]

5 hours ago, Conserv said:

 

I just want to examine the issue of a “1600-only” color.  I have seen evidence of BMW limiting certain colors to certain, generally rarer, sub-models and models.

 

For instance, in 1964, Polaris metallic was only available on the 1800ti, not on the NK 1500, 1600, or 1800.  The first photo below is of a May 1964 NK-only color brochure, illustrating this.  From 1965 onward, Polaris was available on the full range of NK models.  Second, the 2002ti was introduced in September 1968 and, simultaneously, Colorado was introduced as a 2002ti-only color.  The second photo is of the November 1968 all-models color brochure, illustrating this.  From sometime in 1969 onward, Colorado was available for the full range of ‘02’s.  Third, and also illustrated by the second photo, Nachtblau metallic was, in 1968, only available on the coupes:  2000CA, 2000CS, and 2800CS.  Certainly by November 1968, the other colors were available for the full spectrum of models and sub-models.

 

But I’ve not seen BMW evidence of a 1600-only, or 1600-2-only color.  Certainly there is a time element to the relationship of colors to models.  Thus, for instance, the 2002 model is introduced to the public in early 1968 — probably no U.S. examples until April or May of 1968 — and Caribe is gone by the time of the November 1968 all-models color brochure.  So Caribe, for instance — a rare color certainly — is disappearing just as the 2002 is appearing.  But there are Caribe 2002’s out there.

 

For instance, forum member Z3M owns a documented Caribe 1968 2002.  From an earlier thread regarding his 1968, we have:

 

 

You’ll note that, although VIN 1662720 is a U.S.-spec car, it is not a Hoffman Motors car.  It’s an example of a rare non-Hoffman car ordered and delivered through a number of contractors permitted to sell U.S.-spec cars to U.S. service members serving abroad.  Thus, colors were not limited by what Hoffman Motors wanted to order.

 

I've also seen a Caribe 1967(?) 1800 (4-door NK) with what really appeared to be largely original paint.

 

If you have any original literature or documents that illustrate 1600-only colors, I’m genuinely interested in seeing them, as I haven’t come across them thus far.  The more we know about the history, the better!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

And there you have it....I knew Caribe secretly wanted to be back as a 2002 color  .....Thanks Steve!

 

So its back on the list, I am not sure if I will keep Riviera or not-- seems redundant but who knows...

 

-M

[Conserv]

4 hours ago, FunElan said:

I must be wearing orthopedic shoes because I stand corrected. A while back I had read some color chart that indicated what models came in what colors. Under caribe it said "1600, 2002ti." That was why i originally thought it was a 1600 color that didn't come on a 2002. That German delivery example is very interesting! Caribe was then replaced by riviera later on. 

 

Please don't tell me the color chart came from James Taylor's book:  it will take decades to un-wind all the errors thus-far un-earthed in that source!  This is not to say there isn't tons of good info also in that book.  But anything printed in a book becomes, de facto, definitive -- whether it's right or wrong.

 

There are plenty of original BMW documents still available -- brochures, pamphlets, letters -- that can help us understand history.  Too many authors hear something by word of mouth and give it the same credence as documented sources.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

[FunElan]

18 hours ago, Conserv said:

 

Please don't tell me the color chart came from James Taylor's book:  it will take decades to un-wind all the errors thus-far un-earthed in that source!  This is not to say there isn't tons of good info also in that book.  But anything printed in a book becomes, de facto, definitive -- whether it's right or wrong.

 

There are plenty of original BMW documents still available -- brochures, pamphlets, letters -- that can help us understand history.  Too many authors hear something by word of mouth and give it the same credence as documented sources.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

I don't believe it was James Taylor's book! Back when I was er...a fair amount more active on the FAQ, I had found one of those color chart thingys. Felt like a reputable source at the time but Z3Ms example is enough to overturn that. 

[FrictionTape]

Gents -- I am the owner Vin 1662720 and have been absent from the forum for a while as I purchased an E30 325is, which took my time for most of the summer.   Anyway....I wanted to fill you all in on some details regarding the process of finding the original color, Caribe.

 

The below picture is the non-wet sanded and rather dark (sorry, was getting late) picture of the car as it sits today.  I have undertaken the task of painting the car, using all OEM PPG paint products.  I worked with the local PPG paint distributor/retailer to find the right color mixture, and let me tell you, it was oddly difficult, even with the correct BMW supplied paint code.

 

It seems that over the years, the paint manufacturers have consolidated and when using the original BMW paint number and cross referencing with an actual original BMW color book the distributor had (it was really cool!), we  could NOT find Caribe in their database.   The rep. called a few of the manufacturers directly and only found Caribbean listed and we surmised that the person inputing paint names/codes into their data base system must have thought Caribe was short for Carribbean.  To make sure, I brought in a sample piece of the original color off of the car and they made me a very small batch to check for color match.  It did!

 

However, seeing the above thickens the plot as the color I am applying is much darker than the above -- almost a more slate colored blue.   Now, maybe it'll lighten up a bit after sanding and waxing, but I'll be really curious to see how it turns out as anything I've seen online has Caribe being a bit darker blue.

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Z3M

[Conserv]

2 hours ago, Z3M said:

Gents -- I am the owner Vin 1662720 and have been absent from the forum for a while as I purchased an E30 325is, which took my time for most of the summer.   Anyway....I wanted to fill you all in on some details regarding the process of finding the original color, Caribe.

 

The below picture is the non-wet sanded and rather dark (sorry, was getting late) picture of the car as it sits today.  I have undertaken the task of painting the car, using all OEM PPG paint products.  I worked with the local PPG paint distributor/retailer to find the right color mixture, and let me tell you, it was oddly difficult, even with the correct BMW supplied paint code.

 

It seems that over the years, the paint manufacturers have consolidated and when using the original BMW paint number and cross referencing with an actual original BMW color book the distributor had (it was really cool!), we  could NOT find Caribe in their database.   The rep. called a few of the manufacturers directly and only found Caribbean listed and we surmised that the person inputing paint names/codes into their data base system must have thought Caribe was short for Carribbean.  To make sure, I brought in a sample piece of the original color off of the car and they made me a very small batch to check for color match.  It did!

 

However, seeing the above thickens the plot as the color I am applying is much darker than the above -- almost a more slate colored blue.   Now, maybe it'll lighten up a bit after sanding and waxing, but I'll be really curious to see how it turns out as anything I've seen online has Caribe being a bit darker blue.

 

 

It’s not “outside the range”, although the dark photo is probably not the fairest presentation.  And there certainly is/was a “slate-ish” tonality to the blue of Caribe.

 

But, vis-a-vis your experience with Caribe, other colors are simply not as I remember them, or as the original paint might appear in a protected spot, such as the trunk (underdash and other interior areas can be mis-leading as they often did not receive full color coats).  For instance, Mintgrun, today, is “peppier” and less “minty” than the ‘70’s version.  And we’ve seen a wide range of modern versions of Colorado.

 

Even given your dark photograph, however, I suspect your Caribe ‘68 is going to be striking!

 

Thanks for posting!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited October 23, 2017 by Conserv

[mccusername]

Old thread I realize, but I have just bought a 1969 2002, VIN 1667458, manufactured July 1, 1969 and 'delivered' to Hoffman Motors NYC. The archive says the original color was Bristol (which it still is, sort of).

 

From the info above, it seems like Bristol was not one of the limited colors brought in by Hoffman. If the car was European delivery, military, or some special order, would that be noted by the BMW group archive? 

 

The body has a lot of rust, but the car has a pristine saddle/tobacco interior, which the original owner's son thinks was original, but I can't imagine anyone, special order or not, ordering Bristol over saddle. Or for that matter, anyone requesting a dealer make that switch.

 

Michael

 

 

[HBChris]

Hoffman brought in lots of Bristol cars. And the archive has no other info unfortunately. 

Edited November 11, 2018 by HBChris

[mccusername]

On 10/13/2017 at 12:13 PM, mike said:

 

If you're referring to the US market 2002s, model year 1968 and 1969, Hoffman Motors ordered cars only in five colors:  Nevada, Granada, Chaminox as standard--and Baikal and Polaris (both metallic) were extra cost options.

 

 I have correspondence from Hoffman dated late 1968 confirming that--my letters and responses from Hoffman when I was buying my '69, because I wanted something other than the colors offered (I was unsuccessful, and ended up with a Nevada car.)  

 

 

I was going off this info earlier in the thread, and which I have seen elsewhere. 

[Conserv]

5 hours ago, mccusername said:

 

I was going off this info earlier in the thread, and which I have seen elsewhere. 

 

I suspect Hoffman wanted to keep it simple, but — based on anecdotes of special orders, the European Delivery program, etc. — reality intruded.  BMW Group Archives will reveal when a special military importer, such as J.B.S., was involved, in lieu of Hoffman Motors Corp. But Archive’s records will not reveal when cars were delivered through BMW’s European Delivery program: they seem to have generally (always?) been imported through Hoffman Motors Corp.

 

Interior color? Yes, that’s a very rare and odd combination, but we’ll not likely find an unambiguous answer as to whether the car left the factory with those seats. Most ‘02 seats have manufacturing date tags in both the seat bottoms and backs. But these have sometimes disappeared over the decades as seats were re-done. These dates are not dispositive evidence in many cases, as they can be a few months prior to the car’s manufacture. But if you have a seat dated after the car’s manufacturing date, you can be certain it’s not original.

 

Based on the November 1968 color and upholstery brochure — the closest I have to your car’s manufacturing date — navy blue was the default interior color with Bristol (photo below, showing Bristol at the top of the column illustrating default upholstery colors for Bristol, by model). Let’s see some photos of the car and interior to see if there is other evidence of originality.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Conserv

[02Les]

5 hours ago, mccusername said:

Old thread I realize, but I have just bought a 1969 2002, VIN 1667458, manufactured July 1, 1969 and 'delivered' to Hoffman Motors NYC. The archive says the original color was Bristol (which it still is, sort of).

 

From the info above, it seems like Bristol was not one of the limited colors brought in by Hoffman. If the car was European delivery, military, or some special order, would that be noted by the BMW group archive? 

 

The body has a lot of rust, but the car has a pristine saddle/tobacco interior, which the original owner's son thinks was original, but I can't imagine anyone, special order or not, ordering Bristol over saddle. Or for that matter, anyone requesting a dealer make that switch.

 

Michael

 

 

1667458 was on Ebay last month in Chicago. Is this the one you bought? It does not look like Bristol and the interior colour is not normal for Bristol.

 

[mo02]

I must say that your references (Steve) are very helpful & undoubtedly appreciated by et. al -- 

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, 02Les said:

1667458 was on Ebay last month in Chicago. Is this the one you bought? It does not look like Bristol and the interior colour is not normal for Bristol.

 

 

Michael,

 

I see Les’s point. The two exterior photos could pass for Florida (light green) or a chalky example of Nevada (light taupe/gray, with a touch of green) and the trunk shot could pass for Nevada, or Bristol, or, possibly, Florida. But photography can lie, even when we want it to tell the truth! The surroundings, the sky, and the camera can all alter a color’s appearance.

 

No insult intended, but I would best describe Bristol as gray-primer-with-gloss. Is that a vaguely accurate description of your car’s color?

 

(That interior color was very common with Nevada and Florida cars — Nevada and Florida, the colors, not the states. If someone changed the exterior color, they might have changed the interior. That said, the photos might simply be wrong, and your car remains Bristol.)

 

By the by, it looks like a great early example of an ‘02!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited November 11, 2018 by Conserv

[ray_]

Also, cool wheels!

 

[Conserv]

10 minutes ago, ray_ said:

Also, cool wheels!

 

 

Yep, I’d bet those Cosmics have been with your car for a long time! ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve