not Webasto sunroof???

[thinksound_mike]

whatever it is, it looks awesome!

[martinsmith]

mornin Steve E.. thanks for your considerable informative knowledge!... here are the details I have: the car VIN 2771032 was manufactured in June 20, 1975 and delivered to BMW Concessionaires G.B. Ltd., Brentford, Middlesex on June 27th, 1975.

the UK 'Vehicle Registration Mark' is LPH 998P. my company bought the vehicle with this sunroof from an English bloke in London suburbs Nov. 14, 1984 and I later registration was transferred to me... do you need anything else from the UK Registration document?

the protruding handle actually slides into the sunroof when not in use and is 'working'... see photo...

[02Les]

Is that wood? I know Webasto had wood framed models, but maybe others did too.

 

[martinsmith]

no not wood... just stain....

[martinsmith]

think it's glue...

[Guest David Balkwill]

Thanks for your input Steve, I know you'd have some ideas, although the roof is still a mystery.

Did you notice that the handle is telescopic ? It seems to slide away inside the roof when in the locked position, so it would have passed safety standards since the handle is virtually flush.

I've looked at more recent roofs in the States and Brazil, but nothing looks like this one with the plastic corners. The hokk part of the mechanism does look like the Webasto or Golde ones though.

Interesting.

[martinsmith]

the handle is going to be worked on shortly, already at the shop, will take photos of the inside

as soon as it's open...

[martinsmith]

OK here are the inside shots of the mechanizm.... which is now working....

the roof material has shrunk a bit as I've been unable to close/lock it for well over a year

so we are having to warm & stretch..

 

does these shots give you any idea of what roof it is Steve E?...

[Guest Steve E]

Well it still remains difficult this one. Brentford is now just outside the Surrey district where the PH identifies the car was registered. Odd complication here as back then if someone had a private vanity plate the original number was renewed and could have been adopted anywhere else in the UK where someone applied for the changeover again. Today in the UK the original registration plate is stored at Swansea DVLA and always assigned back to the vehicle. However I suspect with boundary changes over the years Brentford is so close to the Surrey boundary it was probably either classified in Surrey or it was the nearest registration point before centralised at Swansea.

 

That all said London was the most dense area for installation centres so not much hope of getting to find who fitted the roof if it was done in the UK.

 

I am wondering if the car could have been imported into the UK with the roof already installed. The roof on close consideration now with the telescopic handle and those injected moulded corners shows it was produced by someone on the brink of latest technology and a knowledge of the requirements of occupant safety legislation.

 

The Golde handle back then was a chrome plated very curved radii die casting. The internal cam mechanism of this roof though does not give anything away. Very rarely would this part of the roof require opening up on a new installation. It follows similar principals with the cam mechanism of most types apart from Slideaway who used wedges at the front rail.

 

In operation the front leading edge needs to be brought down both for locking in position when open so it does not get pushed back and mainly when closing to ensure a windnoise free from any whistling. Water leaks were not really a big issue with this type of roof as the top cover is a natural full overlap. The front latch acts to stretch the top cover tightening/tensioning the sides which can be wire as this one looks like commonly used by Webasto. Some manufacturers alternatively like Slideaway used a wide webbing at the sides.

 

I am trying to understand the exact operation of this cam mechanism from the pictures. Will have to study over a coffee later but first impression it looks as if something is missing/broken on what would be the drivers side RHD. It appears there are two sliding plates from the handle cam operation that link to the front sides to create the top cover front edge pull down. The little metal bar with the screw attached does not appear to be in  a close enough position to interact with the cam of the handle to then create contact to work the mechanism on the side runner.

 

I think Dave here has more experience than me of the inner workings of roofs as I was an importer at first setting up and training franchises in UK and Europe for several manufacturers so mainly dealt with product to car technicalities and details of the cars inner structure to receive a sunroof rather than the detail inside workings of the roof mechanisms.

 

Just to sum up though I think we should try to find out what folding roof manufacturers were around in Germany. Due to some of the forward thinking that obviously went into the design of this roof I now don't think we are looking at an old vintage design. I am also wondering if it was a later product, possibly even a new company that was behind its introduction but the timeline mid 70's was just about the same time the quick fit glass pop top took the sunroof market by storm and turned a 4-6 hour installation of a folding rag top sunroof into less than an hour for the glass one. From memory I recall someone having the record of installing a glass poptop in under 15 minutes.

 

For sure I will stay interested in this thread for any new information and I love doing the jigsaw puzzles to post the replies!!!!

[martinsmith]

well this just in from Peter in the UK, David Balkwill's friend and sunroof installer:

 

"The sunroof you have is a Safari they were only made for a few years, if I understand the post right you have a problem with the handle, to get to the workings you need to remove the front plate if you just open the roof a few inches and look under the plate where the hook comes out you'll see five or six nuts removed these and you can flip the plate back. The only problem there are no spares available for these sunroofs so you'll have to fix what you have. Hope this is of some help.

Regards Peter "

 

Steve E do you know these sunroofs?... also thank you Steve for your very insightful info!!!!

 

does anyone know that maker's story/history?...

[Guest Steve E]

I was quite active in the automotive market during this period advising automotive companies on the new American side impact legislations (proposed but watered down later) and the European legislation regarding passenger safety which affected internal protrusions and radii of components.

 

Indeed the legislation that was being proposed really is what saw the demise of such great British convertibles back then that relied heavily on the USA market for volume sales as the open tops just did not have the side impact strength and needed a full metal body structure redesign. Triumph did this with the introduction of the TR7 and that is why you see the body with its chunky middle. Sadly it did not take off to well as was not that 'eye appealing'. Others produced cars with the centre bars across between the 'B' posts and fitted steel tubes inside the sills (rockers I believe in the USA) to give side impact strength for open top design cars but all these required massive investment in new body structures and design.

 

At no time did I ever see this Safari sunroof in the market or from test reports as I used to see most automotive product test reports from TUV and other test centres like MIRA. It is quite possible they never submitted the roof for test, as providing installation was done after the car was purchased the items fell outside the conformity requirement.

 

It would be interesting if David can get Peter to provide any knowledge of who he thinks manufactured it or imported it as a distributor. My thinking is as the sliding ragtop manufacturers started to move into making their own glass poptops it is quite feasible one of the glass poptop companies imported this for UK distribution to remain competitive.

 

I can't see it is linked to any of the other companies mentioned throughout this thread. My reasons are simply just based on what I see in the pictures around the front wind deflector hinges. Webasto had some nice smooth radii hinges and so did most of the other companies so I do not see why if a new model introduced by any of them they would have surely just used their current visor hinges.

 

The visor hinges appear from the pictures the only real let down of this roof. They look more like off the shelf kitchen cabinet door hinges. These I do not think would comply with the legislation at the time which required any protrusion into the car contactable by a ball of 165mm diameter to be a minimum 3mm radii and anything protruding more than 19mm into the car to be 5mm. There were exceptions in the regulations if the items were covered in energy absorbing material.

 

For interest to anyone the 165mm represents the diameter of a babies head and most of the data that feeds into creating the legislation is from surgical injuries from accidents. The theory is if you roll a 165mm ball all around the interior of the car anything it comes in contact with should conform to these radii.

 

Oh those were the days my Mini Cooper had those long flip switches all along the front for the four spotlights..........a real eye poker in an accident probably.

 

So hopefully Peter can give us all a bit more detail of who imported/supplied/distributed or manufactured the roof.

 

Time now to pass the easier brainteaser jigsaw. At my age it is just about right this time in the morning.

 

BTW I do have a rear black vinyl cover for the soft top when down on the BMW 3 series convertible........ earlier Baur model. Original OE BMW nice condition. If any of you know in the BMW circles who might want one.

 

All the best

 

 

[Guest Steve E]

A few questions for you Martin.

 

Does the car headlining match the sliding roof headlining?

 

Does the car headlining (not sunroof) match the white material on the two sunvisors?

 

Are there any seams in the car headlining along the sides of the roof where the metal supports rods would have been removed?

 

It is not clear from the picture quality but all the interior roof lining looks matching.

 

Just querying out of interest.

 

I can see the brown stains caused by the glue. Absolute nightmare as the cars aged it turned from clear and totally un-noticeable to dark brown. It would even penetrate through from the back to the vinyl surface and look very unsightly on interior head linings.

 

Also regarding stretching the sunroof skin. Generally as the vinyl did shrink you would see the sides concaving in. The latching closing tension was mostly governed by the side wire adjustment I believe. Again maybe David can help you with this as for sure if the tension for closing was set to tough then the life of the handle mechanisms could be very short lived.

 

 

 

 

[martinsmith]

mornin Steve E... answers to your questions and a few more shots...

 

Does the car headlining match the sliding roof headlining? 

YES it does...

 

Does the car headlining (not sunroof) match the white material on the two sunvisors?

No it doesn't

 

Are there any seams in the car headlining along the sides of the roof where the metal supports rods would have been removed? Not sure but see new photos

[BeMyWay]

I am enjoying this discussion...thank you.  

 

I am thinking of installing a similar sunroof, however I have concerns as to the manufacturing and install quality.   

 

Years ago I owned a VW bug with the sliding sunroof...great times! 

 

 

[martinsmith]

it is fun!!!...