1602 Brake mst cylinder

[Simeon]

5 hours ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

 

... isn't it "you I owe"?

 

(Upper, Inner and then Outer)

 

It might be, I couldn’t remember off the top of my head and searched for it. Mine was based on a single result and I usually like to take an ‘average’ of a few different posts. 

[Jimmy]

Technically there isn't a difference in the absolute sense, if you consider hemispheric inversion. ?

[ray_]

You might try reverse bleeding the master, a la 

 

 

Good luck,

[Littleeagle28]

12 hours ago, Simeon said:

 

Unadjusted drums will cause a low pedal but doubt they would be bad enough to get to the floor.

 

what was the bore of the cylinder like when you rebuilt it. Any chance you could have a seal on backwards? You may just find that you have a lot of air trapped in the system. Did you bleed in the correct order, servos first followed by the left front caliper (inner, outer and then upper) and the right caliper before doing the rear brakes.  It might just take some effort to get all of the air out. 

 

Cylinder is 20.6mm and looked really smooth and clear (Rhd vehicle).

 

seals replaced as per parts list, then bench bled the master before replacing on vehicle, then bled in order, rear left, rear right, front left then front right.  Have not bled servos, didn't realise they must be bled and then first.  Are they easy to do?

[Hans]

I don't have Haynes here but I vaguely recall photos of RHD system with remote servo and extra plumbing. May be a different bleed technique. ANd I too recall Upper, Inner, Outer. But it's early

[tme]

Any chance the front calipers are on the wrong sides?  If so no amount of bleeding will give you a good pedal.  If I remember correctly the vertical bleeder should face up but do a search to verify.  I fought this myself until I came across the right thread on here and noticed my bleeders were not facing the right way.

[Littleeagle28]

58 minutes ago, tme said:

Any chance the front calipers are on the wrong sides?  If so no amount of bleeding will give you a good pedal.  If I remember correctly the vertical bleeder should face up but do a search to verify.  I fought this myself until I came across the right thread on here and noticed my bleeders were not facing the right way.

Calipers all in the correct position.

[Littleeagle28]

Bled one servo, got some little air pushed out, however lower servo, no fluid at all, I loosened quite a lot.  So cracked inlet line, fluid came out, cracked outlet line, fluid came out, tried to bleed nipple again no fluid.  Is this servo dead?

[Littleeagle28]

Increased pressure in bleeder, completely removed bleed nipple, and now have fluid coming through?  Brake pedal pressure  a little better, but still not good enough.  Will bleed system again tomorrow.

[ShakeyC]

To be honest all tandem m/c and twin servo brake setups are frustrating to bleed and get a good pedal thats firm and high.

 

5l + of brake fluid used in bleeding a dry system it can be that bad so don't worry too much. Discard first 2-3l then if fluid is clean with just air bubbles you can re-use if left to stand over night.

 

There is a few techniques

 

Rear brake shoes adjusted so handbrake is on hard by 4 clicks on both sides

 

With or without pressure bleeder, jack axle your bleeding up high as possible, bleed master cylinder by cracking the brake unions, then do same with the both brake servos bottom then top.

 

Next first front left then right caliper nipple bottom middle then top on caliper. Then rear (chasing the air bubbles out in sections from rather than pushing them all the way down the lines to rears first)

 

Than second time around do everything opposite way round ie correct way as per manual start from rear than front calipers top middle the bottom.

 

If for whatever reason you keep getting air from servos, remove breather and check for oil and one way valve condition. Try running engine whilst bleeding if its easier its working if no change you have air leak m/c servo side  and don't discount the hoses and pipes.

 

Also check MC rod is not pushed in too far at rest because it will cover or block ports inside it doesnt take much travel to do this.

 

Another reason i noticed some have Tee piece plumbed in upside down this can be bled by cracking the unions open or re-install correct way with feed line going in from bottom. Not the side or top which creates air trap.

 

If you use pressure bleeder keep low sub 5psi. Any more it pushes seals wrong way (strip and rebuild to fix) or adds air into the fluid before it the master cylinder.

 

Hope that helps i find the above a reliable method. 

 

[02Les]

The twin Servo Cylinders to be bled first, then go to the rear,,,,,,etc.

[Littleeagle28]

On 3/31/2019 at 2:40 PM, ShakeyC said:

To be honest all tandem m/c and twin servo brake setups are frustrating to bleed and get a good pedal thats firm and high.

 

5l + of brake fluid used in bleeding a dry system it can be that bad so don't worry too much. Discard first 2-3l then if fluid is clean with just air bubbles you can re-use if left to stand over night.

 

There is a few techniques

 

Rear brake shoes adjusted so handbrake is on hard by 4 clicks on both sides

 

With or without pressure bleeder, jack axle your bleeding up high as possible, bleed master cylinder by cracking the brake unions, then do same with the both brake servos bottom then top.

 

Next first front left then right caliper nipple bottom middle then top on caliper. Then rear (chasing the air bubbles out in sections from rather than pushing them all the way down the lines to rears first)

 

Than second time around do everything opposite way round ie correct way as per manual start from rear than front calipers top middle the bottom.

 

If for whatever reason you keep getting air from servos, remove breather and check for oil and one way valve condition. Try running engine whilst bleeding if its easier its working if no change you have air leak m/c servo side  and don't discount the hoses and pipes.

 

Also check MC rod is not pushed in too far at rest because it will cover or block ports inside it doesnt take much travel to do this.

 

Another reason i noticed some have Tee piece plumbed in upside down this can be bled by cracking the unions open or re-install correct way with feed line going in from bottom. Not the side or top which creates air trap.

 

If you use pressure bleeder keep low sub 5psi. Any more it pushes seals wrong way (strip and rebuild to fix) or adds air into the fluid before it the master cylinder.

 

Hope that helps i find the above a reliable method. 

 

 

Thanks for the info.

 

have gone through them all again starting with the remote servos.  One of he servo units when bled nothing came out, so cracked open the fuel lines and was able to bleed them.  Ther was some air in there as well.  Then did the rears and fronts, got some more air out again.  I now have brakes ?

 

Also so did the clutch.

 

Next is to solve why the engine only starts with choke ( high revs), but dies when choke is removed.

[ShakeyC]

I presume 1602 has single carb, I need to know exact model and version of your carb to help further as each have slight but critical differences in set up.

 

1st thing make sure your timing is correct at static your marks line up as per manual. Check condensor on dizzy haynes manual explains how to check this, replace if in doubt so many people overlook this cheap part but weak one will cause issues long before it fails with fuel like symptoms.

2. check vacuum leaks however it runs with choke spray some brake and clutch give good 10secs between each squirt to make sure. If find leaks on hoses replace them, on carb itself some normal bearing grease to temp plug the leak will help you double make sure if multiple leaks are found.

3. make sure linkages are not too tight especially choke and throttle. The choke cable should be fully off with the knob 1-2mm from the base

4. check butterfly fully closes, if it doesn't not enough vacuum to pull fuel through hence full choke needed.

 

 

 

 

[Littleeagle28]

4 minutes ago, ShakeyC said:

I presume 1602 has single carb, I need to know exact model and version of your carb to help further as each have slight but critical differences in set up.

 

1st thing make sure your timing is correct at static your marks line up as per manual. Check condensor on dizzy haynes manual explains how to check this, replace if in doubt so many people overlook this cheap part but weak one will cause issues long before it fails with fuel like symptoms.

2. check vacuum leaks however it runs with choke spray some brake and clutch give good 10secs between each squirt to make sure. If find leaks on hoses replace them, on carb itself some normal bearing grease to temp plug the leak will help you double make sure if multiple leaks are found.

3. make sure linkages are not too tight especially choke and throttle. The choke cable should be fully off with the knob 1-2mm from the base

4. check butterfly fully closes, if it doesn't not enough vacuum to pull fuel through hence full choke needed.

 

 

 

 

 

Solex 36 40 pdsi. Single carb.  When started with choke, it revs really high, so I switch off in case it runs on.

[ShakeyC]

Have you got engine upto temp yet or just cold start?

 

Not much adjustment apart from idle mix screw and idle speed screw so follow steps above to rule out the common faults. Idle mix screw halfway out and idle speed all the way in and slowly undo until it starts.

 

High idle is either timing too advanced, butterfly not closing fully at rest and vacuum leaks.

 

If no better then check fuel float level and fuel pressure near carb as possible with a suitable fuel pressure gauge. If there is a problem work backwards down the fuel line towards the tank to find it, blocked breather at fuel filler neck also causes similar choke like problem.

 

The last resort would be strip the carb and double checking jet sizes and clean everything up, thankfully they are easiest carb to rebuild at home without special tools. Remember never use gasket scraper on mating faces or wire to poke down the jets.