Engine S/N 1660001

[kbobwhite]

This might be common knowledge but I got this from BMW group last night. 
 

According to our records both cars (1660001 and 1660002) were equipped with manual gearbox.

 

[Conserv]

35 minutes ago, kbobwhite said:

This might be common knowledge but I got this from BMW group last night. 
 

According to our records both cars (1660001 and 1660002) were equipped with manual gearbox.

 

Yeah, the 2002A didn’t come along until... 1969, I believe.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

[Conserv]

I probably own copies of the early road tests, in which VIN’s 1660001 and 1660002 appeared, but I’m hunkered in a bunker in NJ for the lock down, away from my stash (of ‘02 documents).

 

All I could find on short notice (borrowed from the eBay listing of VIN 1660951, a 1968 2002) is a blurry copy,  below, of the May 1968 Road & Track road test.

 

Good stuff nonetheless, even if it is out of focus!

 

1.) California yellow-on-black dealer tags: 1/N DLR 392, or something similar. So the car found its way to California.

 

2.)  Bear in mind that magazine publishers, at least in those days, tended to have approximately three-month lead times, so a road test appearing in May was probably performed in February 1968, or thereabouts. Given a West Coast Port of Entry — Los Angeles, no doubt, site of Hoffman Motors’ West Coast offices — the trip by ship was at least 7 weeks, probably longer. The car, manufactured November 29, 1967, did not pass through U.S. Customs until January 1968.

 

3.)  The road test describes the test car’s color as an extra cost “metallic gray”. That, combined with the (admittedly, black and white) photographs proves, certainly to my satisfaction, that the test car is Polaris metallic. But wait... the paint hasn’t begun to crack and craze.? Now that’s a new ‘02! ?

 

4.)  Early chrome dog-dish hubcaps with the separate and now-rare trim rings.
 

5.)  The car came to Road & Track, and presumably from the factory, with the wrong flywheel, a problem which was apparently rectified before they finished their testing. As described in the text, despite the 3.64:1 differential (as compared to the 1600’s 4.11:1), the testers expected the car to out-perform a 1600-2 but were surprised that the car could not achieve that goal, before the flywheel replacement. After the repair, the pecking order was re-established! ☺️

 

“The gain is there, though our initial tests of the car (which happened to have the wrong flywheel and hence incorrect ignition timing) almost led us to believe it was no quicker than the 1600. The 2002 gets through the standing-start 1/4-mile 0.6 sec faster than the 1600, to 60 mph 1.2 sec faster, it’s top speed is 108 mph vs. the 1600’s even 100.”

 

The fact that Road & Track “discovered” the performance issue, and it was repaired before they concluded their test, I’d bet that they were the first magazine to test it. We need to compare the other reviews — when I find them.

 

6.)  Another statement verifies that the test car was a 1967 production, which, given it is a U.S.-spec car, narrows down the candidates to VIN’s 1660001 and 1660002.

 

“Another characteristic BMW noise — a whump-whump from the clutch throwout bearing when shifting — remained in our 2002 test car, but we’re told by the factory that this has been corrected by a new throwout bearing that went into production in January.”
 

7.) Holy crap: the car came with a clock rather than a tachometer! ?

 

8.) No bulge in the upper radiator hose! I believe that comes considerably later.

 

9.) 165HR13 XAS’s define U.S. 2002’s, beginning with VIN 1660001!
 

So... feast your eyes on what appears to be engine number 1660001 in February 1968! Who knows how many testers wailed on that thing! And yet it survives! ?
 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Conserv

[NickVyse]

Great article. I thought 02s got anti roll bars from the start, but apparently not (and the top pic on the second page would suggest the journos got it right!).

[BritshIron]

My 1600-2, 1560679 (a US spec car built in 1967) came with all of the fittings to simply bolt on the front anti-roll bar. It does appear that it never came from the factory with the front anti-sway bar, but rather set up as an option. 

 

However, there were no such accommodations for a rear sway bar. I got both, original-type bars from Slavs, and bolted on the front bar, then made the fittings and installed the rear bar too.

[Preyupy]

The 1600-2 did not come with sway bars.  The early long neck diff crossmembers on the 1600's did not have the sway bar mounts. When they went to the short neck diff all of the cross members had the mounting points the 1600's just didn't have the bars.  

[jgerock]

2 hours ago, Preyupy said:

The 1600-2 did not come with sway bars.  The early long neck diff crossmembers on the 1600's did not have the sway bar mounts. When they went to the short neck diff all of the cross members had the mounting points the 1600's just didn't have the bars.  

Edit:  I have a BMW 1600 brochure ( # 12243 a 300 I/67) which shows rear suspension detail that has sway bar mounting tabs on the trailing arms. These mounting brackets are placed even with the top of the trailing arm. Same picture shows a flat tab welded to the leading edge of the subframe near the trailing arm pivot mount location. Same brochure shows bubbled cowl covering over heater fan (as opposed to triangular cutout for later cars).  Stay tuned for picture.

Edited April 30, 2020 by jgerock

[BritshIron]

2 hours ago, Preyupy said:

The 1600-2 did not come with sway bars.  The early long neck diff crossmembers on the 1600's did not have the sway bar mounts. When they went to the short neck diff all of the cross members had the mounting points the 1600's just didn't have the bars.  

 

Clarification: I was reporting what we found with a fairly original 1600-2 platform, built in September of 1967. Since we were building a 1600ti tribute car, I was sort of hoping the mounts would be present for both front and rear anti-roll bars. This hope was generated from a sentence in James Taylor's book that says "The 1600ti always had front and rear anti-roll bars as standard, and these were standardised on 2002 models from 1 April 1968." Taylor goes on to say that "Anti-roll bars could be fitted to 1600 models as an extra-cost option."

 

Finally, also germane to this thread on early 2002 cars, Taylor says "The 1600 and the very first 2002's (built before the end of March 1968) did not have anti-roll bars." This squares with the Road and Track article Steve posted, and with any assertion that the early 1600 cars came without anti-roll bars. 

 

Taylor has been wrong before. Anyone who knows enough to clean up his text below, please post! Aloha, Robert

 

 

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, jgerock said:

Edit:  I have a BMW 1600 brochure ( # 12243 a 300 I/67) which shows rear suspension detail that has sway bar mounting tabs on the trailing arms. These mounting brackets are placed even with the top of the trailing arm. Same picture shows a flat tab welded to the leading edge of the subframe near the trailing arm pivot mount location. Same brochure shows bubbled cowl covering over heater fan (as opposed to triangular cutout for later cars).  Stay tuned for picture.

Is this similar to what you’re seeing, Jim? This is from a July 1967 brochure, one which also shows a photo of a “bubbled cowl” — I like your terminology there — which was strictly a 1966 feature.

Someone could say, “Ah, July 1967, and the 1600ti’s were in development, hence the attached photo!” But if you’re showing the same, or a similar photo, in a January 1967 brochure, I believe the “1600ti argument” goes out the window!

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited April 30, 2020 by Conserv

[jgerock]

[tahoedon]

My February 68 1600 did not have sway bars.  After my first autocross at Cal Expo a guy in a 2002 suggested adding them saying they made a big difference, so I saved up to buy them.  The rear bar required welding brackets to the crossmember.  This was also my first time seeing what Cobras were all about.  Some old guy pushed a 289 FIA Cobra to the start line and totally destroyed the field.

[02Anders]

On 4/27/2020 at 1:27 AM, Conserv said:

Did you ever imagine you’d have a “celebrity engine”? You do!
 

Thanks and regards,

 

Steve

 

?

[NickVyse]

FYI: my june '67 1600-2 has no mounting points on the subframe for ARBs. My March 68 does.

[Conserv]

More data is always (generally?) better. But it sure looks like we may end up with conflicting data as to when this practice, preparing rear subframes for anti-roll bars, began. Let’s see if we can identify a possible date, or even dates, plural! But first, let’s see what the outside possibilities are.

 

Terminus Ante Quem
I suspect no one will argue whether the subframes for all short-neck differentials were prepped for anti-roll bars. And this is Byron’s (@Preyupy) position. They were prepped for anti-roll bars. The switchover from long-neck to short-neck differentials occurred in late January 1969 for 2002’s, with VIN 1664761 (or 1664741). I don’t have the analogous VIN for 1600-2’s, but I believe it was roughly contemporaneous with the 2002 switchover, so let's say January 1969, until someone proves me wrong.
 

Terminus Post Quem
And — Anders (@02Anders), I hope you’re reading — I suspect that no one will argue that the first 1600-2‘s rear subframes were prepped for anti-roll bars. I believe they were not prepped for anti-roll bars. The 1600-2 began in production in March 1966.

 

So we can all agree that sometime between March 1966 and January 1969 BMW began prepping all rear subframes for anti-roll bars. Yay! We’re all coming together now! Kumbaya! ?
 

Narrowing the Possibilities
The earliest dated sighting we have of a prepped rear subframe is a photo in a January 1967 1600-2 brochure. The same photo appears in a larger 1600-2 brochure, dated July 1967. We also believe that all 1600ti’s, which began in production in September 1967, were equipped with front and rear anti-roll bars. The presence of anti-roll bars on 1600ti’s does not prove that all subframes were prepped from September 1967 onward, but it shows that a material number of rear subframes were being prepped from September 1967 onward, and 1600ti production flowed right into 2002ti production in late 1968.

Beyond the above data points, we have owner testimonials which tend towards establishing March 1968 as one possible start date for the prepping of all rear sub-frames for anti-roll bars. Coincidentally, or perhaps quite intentionally, we have David Taylor’s statement that anti-roll bars became standard on 2002’s (as distinguished from 1600-2’s) in April 1968. Although I’m not awed by Taylor’s knowledge of ‘02’s, he is sometimes correct and perhaps this is one of those occasions. Realizing that they were going to be installing anti-roll bars on every single 2002, beginning April 1968, did BMW choose to prep 100% of the 1600-2 and 2002 subframes in March 1968? That sounds reasonable to me.

 

But... did anti-roll bars become optional on 1600-2’s before March 1968? I suspect they may have. And, why do we have photographs as early as January 1967 showing a 1600-2 rear subframe prepped for an anti-roll bar? Was it sometime around January 1967 that anti-roll bars became an option on 1600-2’s, and hence some subframes were prepped from that point until March 1968, when all subframes were prepped? Cars in brochures are often pre-production, so perhaps the prepped subframe without an anti-roll bar is a car that got the prep, but was hustled off for photos too soon. I obviously don’t know. But we can’t totally dismiss the photo Jim and I displayed.

 

Straw Man

So here’s my summary, to be corrected, modified, or obliterated, as the facts dictate:

1. January 1967 -- anti-roll bars become an option; rear subframes are prepped on an as-needed basis

2. September 1967 — anti-roll bars become standard on 1600ti’s; a larger portion of rear subframes are prepped

3. March 1968 — anti-roll bars are about to become standard on 2002 models; all subframes, 1600-2 and 2002, are prepped

 

Early 1600-2 owners! Get your a** out to the garage and give us a report on your car, along with VIN and manufacturing date! If you don't have the date, don't worry: we can make one up! ?

 

So that’s where I’m at... today. You want a different viewpoint? Ask me again tomorrow! ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Conserv

[Preyupy]

1600-2 #1570087 built 9/16/69 had a short neck diff, no front or rear sway bars, it did have the mounting points on the rear crossmember for the bar as well as the mounts on the trailing arms.  I had a 68 1600-2 that was a long neck diff that had no mounts on the crossmember or the trailing arms.  I bought a sway bar from ADDCO that required some drilling and mounting of brackets for the 68 (this was in 1973)