Engine S/N 1660001

[Conserv]

8 minutes ago, Preyupy said:

1600-2 #1570087 built 9/16/69 had a short neck diff, no front or rear sway bars, it did have the mounting points on the rear crossmember for the bar as well as the mounts on the trailing arms.  I had a 68 1600-2 that was a long neck diff that had no mounts on the crossmember or the trailing arms.  I bought a sway bar from ADDCO that required some drilling and mounting of brackets for the 68 (this was in 1973)  

 

Any possiblity that your 1968 1600-2 was manufactured in the first half of the 1968 model year, from September 1967 to March 1968? Please say "Maybe" so we don't have to blow up my straw man already!

 

Thanks and best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited May 1, 2020 by Conserv

[BritshIron]

8 hours ago, Conserv said:

More data is always (generally?) better. But it sure looks like we may end up with conflicting data as to when this practice, preparing rear subframes for anti-roll bars, began. Let’s see if we can identify a possible date, or even dates, plural! But first, let’s see what the outside possibilities are.

 

Terminus Ante Quem
I suspect no one will argue whether the subframes for all short-neck differentials were prepped for anti-roll bars. And this is Byron’s (@Preyupy) position. They were prepped for anti-roll bars. The switchover from long-neck to short-neck differentials occurred in late January 1969 for 2002’s, with VIN 1664761 (or 1664741). I don’t have the analogous VIN for 1600-2’s, but I believe it was roughly contemporaneous with the 2002 switchover, so January 1969.
 

Terminus Post Quem
And — Anders (@02Anders), I hope you’re reading — I suspect that no one will argue that the first 1600-2‘s rear subframes were prepped for anti-roll bars. I believe they were not prepped for anti-roll bars. The 1600-2 began in production in March 1966.

 

So we can all agree that sometime between March 1966 and January 1969 BMW began prepping all rear subframes for anti-roll bars. Yay! We’re all coming together now! ?
 

Narrowing the Possibilites
The earliest dated sighting we have of a prepped subframe is a photo in a January 1967 1600-2 brochure. The same photo appears in a larger 1600-2 brochure, dated July 1967. We also believe that all 1600ti’s, which began in production in September 1967, were equipped with front and rear anti-roll bars. The presence of anti-roll bars on 1600ti’s does not prove that all subframes were prepped from September 1967 onward, but it shows that a material number of rear subframes were being prepped from September 1967 onward, and 1600ti production flowed right into 2002ti production in late 1968.

Beyond the above data points, we have owner testimonials which tend towards establishing March 1968 as one possible start date for the prepping of all rear sub-frames for anti-roll bars. Coincidentally, or perhaps quite intentionally, we have David Taylor’s statement that anti-roll bars became standard on 2002’s (as distinguished from 1600-2’s) in April 1968. Although I’m not awed by Taylor’s knowledge of ‘02’s, he is sometimes correct and perhaps this is one of those occasions. Realizing that they were going to be installing anti-roll bars on every single 2002, beginning April 1968, did BMW choose to prep 100% of the 1600-2 and 2002 subframes in March 1968? That sounds reasonable to me.

 

But... did anti-roll bars become optional on 1600-2’s before March 1968? I suspect they may have. And, why do we have photographs as early as January 1967 showing a 1600-2 rear subframe prepped for an anti-roll bar? Was it sometime around January 1967 that anti-roll bars became an option on 1600-2’s, and hence some subframes were prepped from that point until March 1968, when all subframes were prepped? Cars in brochures are often pre-production, so perhaps the prepped subframe without an anti-roll bar is a car that got the prep, but was hustled off for photos too soon. I obviously don’t know. But we can’t totally dismiss the photo Jim and I displayed.

 

Straw Man

So here’s my summary, to be corrected, modified, or obliterated, as the facts dictate:

1. January 1967 -- anti-roll bars become an option; rear subframes are prepped on an as-needed basis

2. September 1967 — anti-roll bars become standard on 1600ti’s; a larger portion of rear subframes are prepped

3. March 1968 — anti-roll bars are about to become standard on 2002 models; all subframes, 1600-2 and 2002, are prepped

 

Early 1600-2 owners! Get your a** out to the garage and give us a report on your car, along with VIN and manufacturing date (if you have the date)!

 

So that’s where I’m at... today. You want a different viewpoint? Ask me again tomorrow! ?

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

 

 

 

Steve, aside from the author being James Taylor and not David Taylor (see, anyone can get something wrong >;~D) I'm wondering if your Straw Man and other discussion above was meant to only address the production evolution of the rear anti-roll bar mounts? Remember, my 1600-2 car 1560679 was manufactured on September 28, 1967, and had only the front anti-roll bar mounting holes in the frame,  and absolutely no sign of any mounting fixtures for a rear anti-roll bar. (I sourced a used but OEM front bar with brackets and bushings, and it bolted right on). And, to be clear, all that was provided on the car for the front anti-roll bars were two holes on each side of the frame to accept the bracket bolts.

 

I've attached a few pictures of how we mounted the rear anti-sway bar on this car, fashioning our own brackets.

 

It would interest me to know whether there was a prolonged practice in the early days of the 1600-2 whereby the factory provided the cars with frame mounting holes for the front anti-roll bar, but absolutely nada provisions for the rear bar, as was the case with my car.  And, as for your Terminus Post Quem request for Anders to chime in, I ran across a short reference in his 1966 Bible that read: "No Anti-Roll Bars, This featured '66 and '67 cars"  I'll let Anders interpret those words. Would love to know if the early 1966 frames were drilled for the front anti-roll bar hardware, just not provided with the actual anti-roll bar.

 

And with that, Expecto Responsio Vestra Aloha, Robert

[Conserv]

On 5/1/2020 at 4:48 PM, BritshIron said:

 

Steve, aside from the author being James Taylor and not David Taylor (see, anyone can get something wrong >;~D) I'm wondering if your Straw Man and other discussion above was meant to only address the production evolution of the rear anti-roll bar mounts? Remember, my 1600-2 car 1560679 was manufactured on September 28, 1967, and had only the front anti-roll bar mounting holes in the frame,  and absolutely no sign of any mounting fixtures for a rear anti-roll bar. (I sourced a used but OEM front bar with brackets and bushings, and it bolted right on). And, to be clear, all that was provided on the car for the front anti-roll bars were two holes on each side of the frame to accept the bracket bolts.

 

I've attached a few pictures of how we mounted the rear anti-sway bar on this car, fashioning our own brackets.

 

It would interest me to know whether there was a prolonged practice in the early days of the 1600-2 whereby the factory provided the cars with frame mounting holes for the front anti-roll bar, but absolutely nada provisions for the rear bar, as was the case with my car.  And, as for your Terminus Post Quem request for Anders to chime in, I ran across a short reference in his 1966 Bible that read: "No Anti-Roll Bars, This featured '66 and '67 cars"  I'll let Anders interpret those words. Would love to know if the early 1966 frames were drilled for the front anti-roll bar hardware, just not provided with the actual anti-roll bar.

 

And with that, Expecto Responsio Vestra Aloha, Robert

 

Oops, Robert! My apologies to James Taylor and, especially, David Taylor -- whoever he may be!

 

No, I've not delved into the front anti-roll bar issue. It always seemed to be on a different schedule from the rear anti-roll bar issue, and decidedly earlier than the rear anti-toll bar!

 

Are you raising your hand to lead the front anti-roll bar discussion? Excellent!

 

I wanted to mark your post, above, as a "Like", a "HaHa", and a "Thanks", but could not break the bonds of the programming!

 

Thanks and best regards,

 

Steve

 

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Conserv

[Mike Self]

On 5/1/2020 at 7:04 AM, Conserv said:

The switchover from long-neck to short-neck differentials occurred in late January 1969 for 2002’s, with VIN 1664761 (or 1664741). I don’t have the analogous VIN for 1600-2’s, but I believe it was roughly contemporaneous with the 2002 switchover, so let's say January 1969, until someone proves me wrong.

1567846 was the last longneck differential on a US spec 1600...per the parts book.  

 

And per this discussion, I'm gonna have to drag out my collection of sales brochures and road tests from when the cars were first introduced.  I know I have the Road & Track, Car and Driver and Popular Science tests, and may have a couple more.  The PS test, IIRC shows a Polaris sunroof car but with NJ plates vs the CA plates on the R&T car.  I'll report when I refresh my memory.

 

mike

[Conserv]

1 hour ago, mike said:

1567846 was the last longneck differential on a US spec 1600...per the parts book.  

 

And per this discussion, I'm gonna have to drag out my collection of sales brochures and road tests from when the cars were first introduced.  I know I have the Road & Track, Car and Driver and Popular Science tests, and may have a couple more.  The PS test, IIRC shows a Polaris sunroof car but with NJ plates vs the CA plates on the R&T car.  I'll report when I refresh my memory.

 

mike

Thank you, Mike!

 

And if VIN 1567736, 110 cars earlier, was manufactured January 28, 1969, VIN 1567846 was probably manufactured shortly thereafter, either in late January 1969 or early February 1969.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited May 3, 2020 by Conserv

[Conserv]

I just noticed that the California dealer tags on the 1968 2002, VIN 1660001, are the same tags later mounted on a 1972 2002, also being tested by Road & Track, albeit four years later...

 

Or could the tags on the 1968 model be 1/N D/L/R 392 and the tags on the 1972 be 1/U D/L/R 392?

 

They’re dealer tags, so it’s no surprise they move around. It’s just not the sort of thing anyone focuses on.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited July 4, 2020 by Conserv

[JerryC]

BritishIron said, "I'm wondering if your Straw Man and other discussion above was meant to only address the production evolution of the rear anti-roll bar mounts? Remember, my 1600-2 car 1560679 was manufactured on September 28, 1967, and had only the front anti-roll bar mounting holes in the frame,  and absolutely no sign of any mounting fixtures for a rear anti-roll bar. (I sourced a used but OEM front bar with brackets and bushings, and it bolted right on). And, to be clear, all that was provided on the car for the front anti-roll bars were two holes on each side of the frame to accept the bracket bolts."

 

Just for the record, I used to own 1561983, and I installed a stock front anti-sway bar, that I purchased from Rob Torres, on it. It bolted right in, no modifications were needed. If I recall correctly, I didn't add a rear bar because there were no mounting holes for the brackets.