123Tune Dizzy - Now I'm dizzy

[fastricky]

One benefit to these COVID times is that I'm taking on more challenges around the house and one is to tackle more maintenance on my tii.

 

Currently the car has a very rough idle at cold start and when warm tends to run hotter than usual. From what I've read this likely means the timing is off. My car has a 123Tune electronic distributor, and I'm wondering if its adjustment is beyond my abilities? Seems like adjustments are made via the app (gone are the days of timing gun and physical rotating of the distributor to adjust?). I downloaded the app and watched this video to try to understand what to do: LINK

 

I'm now nauseous, confused and somewhat annoyed that I didn't stick to a simple old-school dizzy that a caveman like me can play with. Am I overreacting and is it much easier than I fear?

['76mintgrün'02]

1 hour ago, fastricky said:

Am I overreacting...?

 

No.

 

1 hour ago, fastricky said:

I'm now nauseous, confused and somewhat annoyed that I didn't stick to a simple old-school dizzy

 

Do you have a  Bosch diztributor?

 

Do you have a  variable timing light?

 

 

3 hours ago, fastricky said:

(gone are the days of timing gun and physical rotating of the distributor to adjust?)

 

 

A 10 mm wrench is all it takes to remove a 123. 

Tom 

 

[m42002]

You can still tune the 123 with a wrench and timing light. This will get it base lined. The app is to improve the advance and vaccum capabilities to your specific motor/carb/etc.This is instead of adding and subtracting weights to the internals of the the bosch. Much easier. You can also lock the dizzie from working. Handy if you park at the mall, or some other less than ideal spot.

[fastricky]

5 hours ago, '76mintgrün'02 said:

A 10 mm wrench is all it takes to remove a 123.

 

Haha tempting! And I may yet get there...

 

4 hours ago, m42002 said:

You can still tune the 123 with a wrench and timing light. This will get it base lined. The app is to improve the advance and vaccum capabilities to your specific motor/carb/etc.This is instead of adding and subtracting weights to the internals of the the bosch. Much easier. You can also lock the dizzie from working. Handy if you park at the mall, or some other less than ideal spot.

 

Yes, I already have a kill switch but a good feature. I'm hoping it's as easy as finding a few screen shots of settings that will get my car to a better place... does that exist somewhere?

 

[saaron]

If you have the blue book, it has the stock advance curves.  I know because I copied one to give to Advanced Distributors when they rebuilt my distributor.  

 

You could start with a stock tii curve in other words.  

 

And yes, you can impact the timing by twisting the 123, just like a regular distributor, as I understand it.  So I believe you will need to reconcile the curve in the 123 and the static timing (amount of twist in the distributor), to understand what timing your engine is really seeing.  You can check that with a variable timing light right now, if you have one. 

 

You could start your car and retard the timing a bit by turning the 123, and see if it runs better.  Just turn it a tiny amount.  

 

Edit:  If you do have an adjustable timing light, you can have someone rev it up to 3,000 rpm.  It should be at about 32 or so degrees of advance.  Ultimately, that is what you're after.  You could just turn the 123 until you are in that ballpark, as a first step.  Then go back to "what is the curve" in there, and all that.  

 

Double Edit:  I am a novice at most of these car things, but I did buy an adjustable timing light, and learn how to adjust the timing.  It is really easy.  You do need to paint the marks on the pulleys on the front of the engine to do it, though.  That is step one.  

 

Scott

Edited September 23, 2020 by saaron

[Stevenc22]

Lets see your curve? While you can make adjustments via turning the 123, why would you? Simply type in a more or less aggressive curve into the App.

 

You can verify the curve with a timing light.

 

 

[zinz]

I've helped install so many of these 123 units over the last couple years and something that MUST be done is to confirm the static position of the unit by confirming timing with a variable timing light.

 

Install the 123 and get the engine running.

Hook up your advancing timing light

Run the engine up to a steady rpm, say 2000 rpms.

Set your timing light for the advance number for 2000 rpm on your 123 curve and find the OT mark either on the lower crank pulley, or flywheel.

If the OT mark isn't spot on, then loosen the 10mm nut and rotate the 123 body until the OT mark is correct in the strobe (note, rpm will change as you rotate the dizzy, so you will need to maintain that rpm level at the same time)

 

Only after you have confirmed the 123 is correctly set can you rely on any changes you make to the curve.

 

Ed Z

[Mark92131]

The blue book ignition values for a USA Tii are as follows.

 

1000 RPM - 0 to 4 degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 10 to 14 degrees BTDC

2000 RPM - 15 to 20 degrees BTDC

2500 RPM - 21 to 26 degrees BTDC

2700 RPM - 25 degrees BTDC.

 

Based on these values, I would create a map in the 123 Ignition App that falls right in the middle of these values.

 

1000 RPM - 2 degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 12 degrees BTDC

2000 RPM - 17 degrees BTDC

2500 RPM - 23 degrees BTDC

2700 RPM - 25 degrees BTDC

 

Then I would verify the map by setting/holding the idle at 2700 RPM and use a timing light to verify the flywheel steel ball in the viewing port.  If your TDC setup of the 123 Distributor was done correctly, the steel ball on the flywheel should be in the viewing port at 2700 RPM.  If it isn't, you can loosen the 10mm nut under the 123 distributor and slowly turn the distributor until the steel ball appears in the viewing port at 2700RPM.  If you have a variable timing light, you can verify the degrees of advance across the entire RPM range.  Once this is done, you can drive it around and see if you like the result.  Lots of other variables go into the proper tuning of your car, condition of ignition components, spark plug gap, octane levels, fuel delivery, barometric pressure, etc.  This ignition map is only the start, but it allows you to make adjustments that would be problematic on an OEM Tii distributor.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Mark92131

 

 

[fastricky]

3 minutes ago, Mark92131 said:

The blue book ignition values for a USA Tii are as follows.

 

1000 RPM - 0 to 4 degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 10 to 14 degrees BTDC

2000 RPM - 15 to 20 degrees BTDC

2500 RPM - 21 to 26 degrees BTDC

2700 RPM - 25 degrees BTDC.

 

Based on these values, I would create a map in the 123 Ignition App that falls right in the middle of these values.

 

1000 RPM - 2 degrees BTDC

1500 RPM - 12 degrees BTDC

2000 RPM - 17 degrees BTDC

2500 RPM - 23 degrees BTDC

2700 RPM - 25 degrees BTDC

 

Then I would verify the map by setting/holding the idle at 2700 RPM and use a timing light to verify the flywheel steel ball in the viewing port.  If your TDC setup of the 123 Distributor was done correctly, the steel ball on the flywheel should be in the viewing port at 2700 RPM.  If it isn't, you can loosen the 10mm nut under the 123 distributor and slowly turn the distributor until the steel ball appears in the viewing port at 2700RPM.  If you have a variable timing light, you can verify the degrees of advance across the entire RPM range.  Once this is done, you can drive it around and see if you like the result.  Lots of other variables go into the proper tuning of your car, condition of ignition components, spark plug gap, octane levels, fuel delivery, barometric pressure, etc.  This ignition map is only the start, but it allows you to make adjustments that would be problematic on an OEM Tii distributor.

 

I hope this helps.

 

 

Mark92131

 

 

 

This is a massive help, thank you! Will endeavor to have a crack at this in the next few days.

 

[fastricky]

BTW can anyone recommend / provide a link for a good variable timing light/gun?

[jp5Touring]

Innova 5568, think I paid $105. from Summit through eBay.

 

https://www.innova.com/product/detail/5568a/Pro-Digital-Timing-Light

[jrhone]

question....when was the last time you adjusted your valves? My car was running pretty rough. Rough idle, almost sounded like it was missing...ran better when warm, but when cold it would barely idle.  I changed plugs, checked cap and rotor...fiddled with my timing in the 123 Dizzy, adjusted the carb, nothing really did much.  Then I adjusted my valves and BAM...it ran perfectly smooth.  I find the timing on these doesnt go "off" alot...in fact...I was a beta tester for the BT version of it...and then bought a release version as well...and I have never had to "retime" the car once it was set.  Unless something has changed with the engine...I would look at other things as well.

[fastricky]

2 hours ago, jp5Touring said:

Innova 5568, think I paid $105. from Summit through eBay.

 

https://www.innova.com/product/detail/5568a/Pro-Digital-Timing-Light

 

? Purchased thx

[fastricky]

1 hour ago, jrhone said:

question....when was the last time you adjusted your valves? My car was running pretty rough. Rough idle, almost sounded like it was missing...ran better when warm, but when cold it would barely idle.  I changed plugs, checked cap and rotor...fiddled with my timing in the 123 Dizzy, adjusted the carb, nothing really did much.  Then I adjusted my valves and BAM...it ran perfectly smooth.  I find the timing on these doesnt go "off" alot...in fact...I was a beta tester for the BT version of it...and then bought a release version as well...and I have never had to "retime" the car once it was set.  Unless something has changed with the engine...I would look at other things as well.

 

This is definitely a valid thought - I will be checking this too but I believe the issue is with the timing as the shop that did the previous work mentioned believing the timing was off and they had to play with it and I think they botched it.

[Squid's 02]

I recently installed a Bluetooth version of the 123, and initially wondered if there was any advantage to having some static advance. However, in the end I set the timing to 0 and let the distributor do all the work of advancing the timing at the values that I programmed. 

 

The one thing that I still don't have a complete understanding of is the vacuum advance. Can any of the experts in this thread provide a simple explanation of the vacuum advance? When it would come into play? Benefits? And possible suggestions of initials settings?

 

Thank you