First Time Poster with a dumb question about VIN #s

[Dugan27]

Hello Everyone, 

 

Been shopping for a 2002 for about a year and now I'm ready to pull the trigger. 3 possibilities are in the mix including one on BAT currently; In the listing it claims and shows photos indicating the VIN on body matches the motor. 

 

Another one I'm looking at they don't match. I spoke to the PO who sold it to a dealer (who is who I'd be buying it from) and the PO also believed the motor to be original and they know the ownership history since new. The motor was rebuilt in 2015 but we both agreed it was possible but unlikely the motor could have been replaced without him knowing.

 

I don't especially car if the motor was replaced, I just want to know what I'm buying. I've gone around a few times with the dealer in question who sent me this text. 

 

 

This seems like jive to me, but I've been wrong about so many things in life, so I wanted to ask you wise folks here. Does what they are saying hold water?

 

Many Thanks, 

 

Dugan

 

[TobyB]

With 2002s, the car left Germany with the same number on the body and block,

99.44% of the time.

 

But if you search around here, not all that many of us sweat that too much.

 

Yet.

 

t

 

[Son of Marty]

The Vin and engine numbers are the same if original. Throwing things together willie-nilly is not the German way.

[Mike Self]

First of all, your dealer-in-question WRT motor and VIN matching is incorrect for 2002s.  From the factory they matched, and 2002s don't have separate "body" and "chassis" VINs; they're unibody construction so don't need two separate numbers. 

 

There's one possible exception to a 2002 whose VIN and motor numbers don't match--and a very rare one:  if something happened to the motor either in transit or after delivery to the dealer, it could have been replaced with a factory new motor before sale.  But AFAIK, a replacement new motor would have a different motor number (not in the same sequence as those fitted on the production line).  If the motor was replaced under warranty after sale, probably the same thing.  In 52 years of messing with 2002s, I haven't seen a documented example of the above situation, but I'm sure it occurred.  

 

Please post the car's and motor's VINs.  If the car in question has a "normal production" motor number, then it's from another 2002.   And that happens all the time as the cars get older.  If the motor number is not a "normal production" motor number, then it's probably a factory rebuilt unit.  The archives here on the FAQ have a de-coder for those factory rebuilds, and another one for all the US VIN runs.  

 

Hope one of 'em works out for you.

 

cheers

mike

[visionaut]

The only cars that explanation would be valid for are cars which were ‘boxed’ for assembly elsewhere. Like Portugal, or South America. But even those almost all have matching numbers. Most of the rest of Europe had cars delivered from Germany, again all matching. If there was a mismatch at assembly, the VINs would have to be within half a dozen close numbers or so.

 

Reman/rebuilt might have included a  replacement block. If from BMW it’s marked differently indicating such, if it’s from another car, it’ll be a normal valid VIN. (Steve should be seeing and replying with the full skinny).  So what are the VINs?

 

…so on first glance, I’m not buying the ‘salesman’.

[Dugan27]

Hey! Thanks for the replies. Here is the car in question

https://sanfer-sports-cars.ebizautos.com/details-1976-bmw-2002-used-2761619.html

 

Again, I don't really care about them matching. I care about what I'm buying, and who I'm buying it from (less so). 

 

Body vin is in the listing, and here is a pic of motor he texted me. 

 

 

Oh, and the VIN shown in the user manual is different than both! 

 

I know it's a square tail, and lots of other mods likely hurt the value, and don't plan to offer close to asking....but it was a blast to drive, looks pretty rippin (to me). PO told me he thinks the auction sale price was around $18-19k so if that's true I will likely have to ago a few $k over that. 

[AceAndrew]

As said, most in the 2002 community couldn't care less where the engine came from and if the numbers are matching.  That phenomenon is just from recent investors.

 

.... however, we(I) do care if a salesman is trying to blow smoke up my butt with an obvious white lie.  What else are they "stretching the truth" on?

 

If possible, have it PPI'd by a proper 02 mechanic.  If the 3 hour trip is possible, I'd recommend Jim and Deborah at German Motorwerks in Longwood.  They've been hotrodding 02's since long before they became BAT's Babies.

[Dugan27]

I also am eyeing this, and bid twice already, but I expect it to go out of my price range before it's over.

 

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1972-bmw-2002tii-61/

 

 

[Dugan27]

Just now, AceAndrew said:

.... however, we(I) do care if a salesman is trying to blow smoke up my butt with an obvious white lie.  What else are they "stretching the truth" on?

Exactly why I'm concerned. Even though all they are doing is flipping it, and the PO gave me some good assurance the work was done by a reputable shop in California. Originally bought new by his wife's father. Could all be BS though. 

 

 

[Mike Self]

Hoo doggies--you've got a hot one there!  That's a 76 motor by its number--and probably the original motor, and the VIN is from a 1972 tii.  Neither the riveted VIN plate that's alongside the stamped-in number on the inner fender are most assuredly not from that car.  And the VIN plate riveted to the upper steering column housing is definitely from a roundie; that part on a squarelight had a little hump on its trailing edge to match up wit the larger squarelight steering wheel hub.

 

This tells is all: 1976 BMW 2002 California Car Titled as a 1972   As a '76, it would have to be smogged in CA, but not as a '72.  It seems to be nicely done appearance-wise, but I'd be leery of such a matchup.  Not quite "lipstick on a pig" but not completely ethical either.  Or whomever did this should have had the good sense to use a '74 or 75 VIN for the chicanery...   

 

mike 

[Dugan27]

5 minutes ago, Mike Self said:

 1976 BMW 2002 California Car Titled as a 1972  

Yeah.....I know. 

 

"Neither the riveted VIN plate that's alongside the stamped-in number on the inner fender are most assuredly not from that car.  And the VIN plate riveted to the upper steering column housing is definitely from a roundie;"

 

If it's that level....I have even more reservations.

Edited September 8, 2021 by Dugan27

[jp5Touring]

I thought that was the 76 being sold as a 73.  They did finally change the ad.  I wouldn't buy it for that reason alone.

This car has been for sale quite a while.     Danger Danger Will Rogers

[beammmer]

22 minutes ago, Dugan27 said:

Exactly why I'm concerned. Even though all they are doing is flipping it, and the PO gave me some good assurance the work was done by a reputable shop in California. Originally bought new by his wife's father. Could all be BS though. 

 

 

Mike has it nailed.  Spend the extra $ to get the real deal upfront versus a snake deal ie sales man trying to move some iron.

 

You had the right idea to come to the FAQ!!  Definitely no dumb questions here, a few exceptions apply.

 

For what it's worth,

 

Don

Edited September 8, 2021 by beammmer

[jp5Touring]

You'r being wise to ask here.  I looked for two years to find mine.  

How long have you been looking and price range if you don't mind my asking ?

[esty]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/114976451024?hash=item1ac52169d0:g:2YoAAOSwxMFhN9R4&vxp=mtr