Dash indicator lights (turn signal/high beam) inoperable

[0257]

Happy new year, everyone.  

 

Those of you who have followed the saga of Zouave’s fuel delivery issues know I am not that good at diagnosis.  But that I am hell on a cure when a problem arises, and will often do way too much curing before I figure out what went wrong in the first place. In the spirit of keeping that to a minimum, Zouave has another problem, this one probably a result of all the electrical troubleshooting I did in connection with the fuel delivery issues.

 

It is this: in reassembling the instrument binnacle after thoroughly checking out the tach wiring, I at first had no problems at all. Then, when I was driving Zouave, my blinkers failed and every time I flicked the stalk I got a harsh intermittent buzzing sound from the relay.  I fiddled around with it all a bit and then the blinkers worked — and with less buzz from the relay — but some buzz, and the relay and blinkers still going too fast.  And no green dash light.  For that matter, no blue high beam light -- everything else on the panel splendid.  Every related system on the car works too — turn signal lights, brights, emergency flashers. Just no green or blue lights on the dash, and the fast flashing.

 

I have done the following:

• While I had the instruments out for troubleshooting, I made a ground strap for the temp and oil gauges.  I have connected and disconnected that in troubleshooting the current problem, though I don’t think it should change anything (disconnecting the new ground certainly didn’t fix the problem)
• I inspected the flasher relay, which seems to work fine aside from the buzzing noise it intermittently makes.  I lightly sanded the points on all four contacts just in case that might help (it didn’t)
• I checked and rechecked the correctness and firmness of my wiring connectors for the dash lights
• I checked and rechecked that all dash bulbs are good and connected (all the dash bulbs are less than a year old)
• I checked the fuses in the fusebox (just in case)

 

I am pretty sure this problem is related to my having pulled the binnacle and messed around with it doing troubleshooting.  Everything about the wiring in Zouave is like new, so I don’t suspect a gremlin like a failing wire insulation.  It’s no surprise that the flashers/relay are running fast with the green dash light inoperable, as the current load is less without that bulb operating.  Because all the turn signals, etc. are operating, I have not removed every bulb.  Just doesn’t seem indicated (no pun intended).  

 

And none of this suggests to me why the high beam indicator light is not operating.  One suspects that the two bulbs share a common power source, which has been compromised.  Is that on the 12 pin connector?  Another connector? I have looked as hard as I can at my factory and aftermarket wiring diagrams without learning much.  Surprisingly little detail about how that wiring works, and I don’t understand the wiring around h and i (the two indicator lights in question).  But it’s probably time to start putting the multimeter to work if someone doesn’t have a better suggestion.

 

Can anyone make such a suggestion?  It’d be especially helpful to have a more detailed wiring diagram for the 12 pin plug and instrument binnacle generally.  I feel pretty certain that there must be a single power source for these two bulbs, and that’s where the issue lies.

 

Thanks as always.

 

 

 

Edited January 5, 2022 by 0257

[John76]

Found this in my notebook.

Hopefully it will help you track down the problem.

A buzzing relay might be caused by a bad ground somewhere.

John

 

 

[Mike Self]

The intermittent or non-operative turn signal dash repeater light is often a ground problem either at one of the lights or a problem with the flasher relay itself.  Did you try engaging the emergency flashers with the ignition off?  Those flashers use the same relay as the turn signals, but the positive feed is through an entirely different wiring path--one that's hot all the time, where the turn signal wiring is hot only with the ignition on.  If the dash light now blinks in reliably and the flasher relay doesn't buzz, then the problem is either in the turn signal lever itself, or the power feed for the turn signals.  Presume you did check the relevant fuse. 

 

For the high beams:  according to John's handy diagram above, connector #9, which feeds the high beam dash warning light goes to fuse 11.  Didja check that fuse for tightness/cleanliness? The warning light is triggered by selecting high beams with the headlight stalk--does the warning light not work either when selecting high beams, or activating the high beam flasher?  I can't see how it and the turn signal repeater are connected, other than they occupy adjacent bulb sockets in the instrument cluster.  Perhaps a crossed wire there, or a bad circuit board?

 

mike 

[0257]

Thanks both for these contributions.  I am still noodling on John’s diagram, which is pointing me toward the turn indicator/low beam switch.  And anyway, to Mike’s last point, that’s the place that high beams and turn signals intersect.  Since I just got back from the eye doctor, further wiring diagram tracing’s out of the question for the next while.

 

Meantime, after polishing up the fuse connection to fuse #11, I turned the headlights on and hit the high beams and lo! — a very faint blue light.  I mean really faint, but turns off when I go to low beams, so I hereby declare it fixed.  No idea whether polishing the fuse connector mattered, but John’s diagram shows a direct connection.  Well, ok, thanks John!

 

The turn signals all still worked with the key at “on”, whether with the dims, the brights or the (separately relayed) driving lights on. Still a fast blink, still no dash indicators, and no buzzing.

 

Independently, I turned the hazard flashers on with key at “off” and after about 5 fast flashes the relay froze up with a ferocious buzz, all four lights on.  Hmm!  I don’t think it froze up like that before (though I recall initially it may have done that, like the first time I tested the hazard when the problem first arose).  

 

 Then, I turned the key to “on”.  The hazards blink (fast) with no buzz in the flasher relay.  I turned the lights on — no change.

 

Not sure what all this means yet, but it seems that anytime there is a load in the system, the hazard flashers work fine (if fast).  When there is no other load other than the flashers themselves, the relay is overloaded.  When my eyes recover I’ll pursue the number 8 leads from the 12-pin plug in both directions, searching for the cause of the missing turn signal dash indicator.

[John76]

Are you using the stock 4-wire flasher unit? If so, double check the brown ground wire.

Are you using a NAPA EL-13 electronic flasher?  If so, are the connections correct?  X  to Green/violet.  P  to Black/white. 

L  to Green/yellow.  Note: Brown ground wire in stock flasher harness is not used.

Do you have the correct bulbs (21W) in all 4 turn signals ?

Any LED bulbs in the dash or elsewhere?  Could be messing up the load on the relay.

Let me know if you need other wiring sketches. Even with good eyes, I can't see anything on those factory wiring schematics!

Good luck,

John

[ray_]

Ken, glad you found something to keep yourself occupied over the winter.

 

[0257]

On 1/7/2022 at 11:20 PM, ray_ said:

Ken, glad you found something to keep yourself occupied over the winter.

 

Ray, it’s intended to keep you occupied too.  Idle hands….

[0257]

I owe an update.  In fact, I tried to send a detailed on last weekend, but it somehow never posted.  Meantime, family came to visit, Ted Lasso took over the evenings, and I have had to retrace my steps to recall everything I tested to recreate that post.

In the good news dept, my flashers seem to work with the key off — ie, not overload the flasher relay — even if they still work fast.  In the bad news department, I could not begin to say why.

To answer John’s questions, I have the stock flasher.  It has two ground leads coming from the same terminal.  One goes to the wiper-washer switch, the other to the dome light. I have run both those circuits and every function works fine.  So I assume the related ground is good.  Note: I DID have LED dome light bulbs, but have replaced those with regular bulbs as a control. While the dash cluster is still out (and therefore maybe affecting draw) that replacement did nothing to change the fast click of blinkers and flashers.

What’s more revealing: I plugged my multimeter into pins 8 (power from flasher switch) and 3 (ground) of the 12-pin plug, and ran the hazard flasher and the turn signals, and it’s clear that circuit is working — ie, 10+ volts is getting to the the #8 pin on the 12 pin connector (ie, the connector soldered into the back of the gauge). Pin 8 is well connected to the gauge board — no wiggle or other apparent looseness.  I tested that connection further by setting the multimeter on “continuity” and touching the leads to the pin on the back side and the solder blob on the front.  It sings.  I then tested the removable bulb/socket for continuity. It sings.  

Either I am completely lost or there must be a problem with the surface metal connection inside the black plastic case where the green light sits (see foreground of below photo):

I don’t have the 4.5 mm socket required to remove the front plate of the gauge  — somebody tell me I don’t need to?

[0257]

[0257]

So I rigged up a way to test continuity of the circuit between the solder blob at pin 8 and the surface of the dash board inside the socket chamber of the green bulb, without having to remove the face of the gauge.  It sings.  Still no green light.

 

[Mike Self]

26 minutes ago, 0257 said:

In the good news dept, my flashers seem to work with the key off — ie, not overload the flasher relay — even if they still work fast.  In the bad news department, I could not begin to say why.

If you're referring to the emergency flashers, they're supposed to work with the ignition off--that's a Federal DOT requirement.  If you're referring to the turn signals:  if they're working with the ignition off, then there's a crossfeed going on inside the emergency flasher switch.  It contains two sets of contacts--one that's live all the time to feed the emergency flashers, and the other that's live only with the ignition on, to feed current to the flasher relay to allow the turn signals to operate.

 

Have you tried connecting the + lead of your voltmeter to the multiprong instrument cluster terminal that feeds power to the turn signal flasher bulb, then engaging the turn signals?  You should see you voltmeter bounce between zero and 12 volts.  If it does, you've eliminated everything except the circuit board and bulb socket in the instrument cluster itself. 

 

Having LED bulbs anywhere in the instrument cluster except the alternator light or the turn signal repeater (or the dome light, for that matter) will have no effect on the turn signal's flashing speed.  

 

Also...on all roundies, the turn signal lever is on the right side of the steering column, while the dimmer/high beam flasher lever is on the left side.  It wasn't 'till 1974 (and an international standardization agreement) that moved the turn signal lever to the left side.

 

Oh...one more thing...the blue high beam light is supposed to be dim--and barely visible in daylight.  Otherwise it would be blinding at night--especially since you normally use your high beams out in the countryside where it's dark... 

 

mike

 

[0257]

Mike, a couple of responses:

 

• Zouave’s a squaretail.
• I’m aware of how the emergency flashers should work.  The issue I was addressing with that comment was one I had previously raised: that with the key off, my emergency flashers would work briefly, then freeze up. With no particular fix, that seems to have righted itself. Thus, good news/bad news.
• Turn signals only work with ignition on.  Nothing to see there.
• When I plug the tester into plug 8 (which is the “on-only” lead from the hazard flasher switch) I get 10.6-8 volts continuous.  Not off-on.  That seems strange, but it also seems that should light the green bulb continuously, rather than not at all?

[ray_]

Post a pic of your flasher relay.

[0257]

11 minutes ago, ray_ said:

Post a pic of your flasher relay.

Assumed you’d prefer to see it unclothed:

[ray_]

57 minutes ago, 0257 said:

Assumed you’d prefer to see it unclothed:

Are you certain that's the flasher relay?

 

... a decent pair of pliers can undo those hex heads on the gauge face. They are not that tight. But I don't think you need to go there.

Edited January 13, 2022 by ray_