DanJer wide control arms?

[Einspritz]

OOPS!

 

Didn't see the above pictures on how to do that.

 

Nevermind.......

[DanJer Motorsports]

4 minutes ago, Einspritz said:

OOPS!

 

Didn't see the above pictures on how to do that.

 

Nevermind.......

If you did want bushings at the swaybar end you could get the appropriate length bolt and use the female rod and at the bottom. Basically reverse of what IE does for their bar on a stock control arm. 

[2002dude]

On 1/19/2023 at 10:49 PM, cda951 said:

 

As others mentioned, E3/E9 arms do a bit too much of the same thing for a street car (a lot of negative camber), don't fit well, and have built-in ball joints, so when those wear out, you need to replace the entire arm.

 

I've had the Danjer arms for a bit over a year and I'm quite pleased. They work especially well for my particular car, a '73 tii that was modified by the previous owner in the late 1980s/early 1990s with smoothed-in Turbo style fender flares , and uses 15x7 OZ fakey Alpina wheels to fill the arches. This looks great, but widening the track by moving the centerline of the tires further outboard from the steering axis (imaginary line from the strut top pivot bearing to the lower ball joint) increases the scrub radius, which makes the steering quite heavy, and the front tires would rub the rear of the wheel housings at full steering lock.

 

I wanted more negative camber without resorting to coilovers and camber plates (already have a track-focused car with all that, wanted the 2002 to still be able to traverse the rough/rutted backroads of CA), so I first tried the IE offset roll center spacers, which helped turn-in and mid-corner grip but of course exacerbated the scrub radius issue.

 

The Danjer control arms solved the issue (along with IE non-offset roll center spacers), still got about -1.5 degrees camber, steering is slightly lighter, no more rubbing, front end never gives up even in the tightest of hairpins during the road rallies this car is meant for. Last pic shows the outer edge of the front tire after a 3-day road rally, I thought -1.5 degrees camber wouldn't be enough, but the tire wear shows it was perfect, never a hint of understeer. Autocross or track days would require more negative camber, probably -2 to -3 degrees.

Thanks!
 

So you have stock unbent struts?  Whats your suspension setup?  -1.5° seems perfect. 

[cda951]

5 hours ago, 2002dude said:

Thanks!
 

So you have stock unbent struts?  Whats your suspension setup?  -1.5° seems perfect. 

 

Nothing fancy, just stock, unbent tii struts with Bilstein HD inserts and H&R lowering springs, along with the IE roll center spacers and Danjer arms as shown in the pic above. 

 

I used to have a large sway bay in the front, but it caused too much understeer so I got a used ST front bar from someone here on the FAQ, and retained the 3-hole adjustable rear sway bar that was on the car when I bought it (can't remember the brand, something 1980s/1990s vintage).

 

I have resisted the urge to go to coilovers and shorter struts, etc like in my Porsche 944 Turbo track car because my 2002tii is used primarily for fun road rallies all over California, so lots of narrow, rutted roads and plenty of dirt sections mixed in. Therefore some semblance of ground clearance is welcome, plus the wider track and E21 LSD really help it to grip and put the power down. It's a simple setup, but I think it is perhaps the most resolved of all my cars in terms of its intended purpose.

Edited January 22, 2023 by cda951

[DanJer Motorsports]

On 1/22/2023 at 11:15 AM, cda951 said:

 

Nothing fancy, just stock, unbent tii struts with Bilstein HD inserts and H&R lowering springs, along with the IE roll center spacers and Danjer arms as shown in the pic above. 

 

I used to have a large sway bay in the front, but it caused too much understeer so I got a used ST front bar from someone here on the FAQ, and retained the 3-hole adjustable rear sway bar that was on the car when I bought it (can't remember the brand, something 1980s/1990s vintage).

 

I have resisted the urge to go to coilovers and shorter struts, etc like in my Porsche 944 Turbo track car because my 2002tii is used primarily for fun road rallies all over California, so lots of narrow, rutted roads and plenty of dirt sections mixed in. Therefore some semblance of ground clearance is welcome, plus the wider track and E21 LSD really help it to grip and put the power down. It's a simple setup, but I think it is perhaps the most resolved of all my cars in terms of its intended purpose.

I like to keep track of people’s camber with our arms and what they are doing to get there. You are at -1.5° with our arms, IE roll center spacers (15 or 25mm?) and H&R springs? 
 

Thanks

[cda951]

3 hours ago, DanJer Motorsports said:

I like to keep track of people’s camber with our arms and what they are doing to get there. You are at -1.5° with our arms, IE roll center spacers (15 or 25mm?) and H&R springs? 
 

Thanks

 

They are 13mm according to the IE website, centered version.

[TobyB]

Just because I'm a pedantic old bastard-

 

it is quite possible to put small springs onto a 2002 and soften it up a bit.  

(the car technically comes with 'coil- overs' in front)

If the strut's modified appropriately, one can also gain ride height.  

 

It's just a choice to lower and stiffen it.  I've even seen some really

cool arrangements that allow one to change where the sleeve rides

on the strut itself if that level of adjustability is needed (gravel vs tarmac vs lots of 'yumps)

The one thing that's hard to change is lowest reasonable ride height, as the top of the strut

starts to run into the bottom of the strut housing.

 

t

just for the record, I can stop any day. 

 

[2002dude]

I’m not sure i follow?  You’re talking about how Ireland Engineering modifies the strut?

[cda951]

21 hours ago, TobyB said:

Just because I'm a pedantic old bastard-

 

it is quite possible to put small springs onto a 2002 and soften it up a bit.  

(the car technically comes with 'coil- overs' in front)

If the strut's modified appropriately, one can also gain ride height.  

 

It's just a choice to lower and stiffen it.  I've even seen some really

cool arrangements that allow one to change where the sleeve rides

on the strut itself if that level of adjustability is needed (gravel vs tarmac vs lots of 'yumps)

The one thing that's hard to change is lowest reasonable ride height, as the top of the strut

starts to run into the bottom of the strut housing.

 

t

just for the record, I can stop any day. 

 

 

Haha. This does remind me that I should fully resolve my point about the ideal suspension setup for my particular car and why I didn't install height-adjustable coilovers.

 

I was tempted by, say, Ground Control's height adjustable setup, not because I wanted the car to be super low and stiff, but the narrower 2.5" ID springs and hats allow the use of top-mount camber plates to achieve more negative camber without the springs interfering with the inner wheel arches.

 

But, this requires modifying tii struts, and the camber plates remove another layer of compliance from the ride, then you start messing with helper springs to keep the main springs seated when the wheels are at full droop, etc. I already have a track-focused car with all that (my 944 Turbo has shorter Ground control struts, modified front spindles, inverted rear shocks, all spherical, yada yada), hence the retention of basic lowering springs and stock strut mounts for my 2002tii

 

The Danjer arms were the final piece of the puzzle for increasing front end grip without making the thing crash over bumps. We all see the younger BMW enthusiasts with the slammed E30s and 02s, and while they look cool at a car show, it is hilarious watching one of them attempting to hustle on the typical rutted backroads we have around here. 

[edgefinder]

22 hours ago, TobyB said:

Just because I'm a pedantic old bastard-

t

just for the record, I can stop any day. 

Your not rattling on Toby. A few months ago I was trying to formulate a question of how to relocate the bottom of the strut instead of the top for caster camber adjustment but gave up cause I didn't know what I was asking. The guys I work with would say get a car with A arms. A recent post about roll center spacers that can also offset the bottom out answered most of it and this post tells me a lot more so thanks everyone. 

 

My next question, has anyone built a 4 link or A arm front end on an 02? The answer to the first question to answer my question is yes I own a machine shop and help build high end race cars from the ground up. But I am a motorcycle guy used to all the adjustments built in and the rider takes care of the rest

 

Luke 

[TobyB]

4 hours ago, 2002dude said:

I’m not sure i follow?  You’re talking about how Ireland Engineering modifies the strut?

Nope-

 

Ireland welds the collar stop-

but I've seen a version (and I don't think it was on a 2002) that used

a snap ring machined into a groove to retain the threaded spring collar.

There were multiple grooves, and the collar was cut at an inverted taper,

to act as a lock,

so that you could set the collar at several different heights by simply 

moving the snap ring.  It was kind of ingenious, and having had to decide

'how low' in past (and getting it not quite right) it made a lot of sense.

 

in general, everyone ASSumes that 'coilovers' have to be low and stiff.  They don't-

the small springs can be longer and softer than stock, and if you install either a long threaded

collar, or put it up a bit higher, you can get MORE effective travel than stock.  It might be goofy, 

but it's quite possible.  

 

The bottom end of a 2002 IS an a- arm, of sorts- but there's no real structure above

to tie the upper a-arm.  And there's not enough room- that cool Honda upper setup

with the arm ABOVE the tire was almost 3 decades AFTER the 2002.

Hmm.

 

I do wonder if the Honda idea could be adapted, tho.  Then a 2002x wouldn't be impossible, either...

 

t

doesn't have old shells kicking around to try stuff like this on, any more.

[2002dude]

8 hours ago, TobyB said:

Nope-

 

Ireland welds the collar stop-

but I've seen a version (and I don't think it was on a 2002) that used

a snap ring machined into a groove to retain the threaded spring collar.

There were multiple grooves, and the collar was cut at an inverted taper,

to act as a lock,

so that you could set the collar at several different heights by simply 

moving the snap ring.  It was kind of ingenious, and having had to decide

'how low' in past (and getting it not quite right) it made a lot of sense.

 

in general, everyone ASSumes that 'coilovers' have to be low and stiff.  They don't-

the small springs can be longer and softer than stock, and if you install either a long threaded

collar, or put it up a bit higher, you can get MORE effective travel than stock.  It might be goofy, 

but it's quite possible.  

 

The bottom end of a 2002 IS an a- arm, of sorts- but there's no real structure above

to tie the upper a-arm.  And there's not enough room- that cool Honda upper setup

with the arm ABOVE the tire was almost 3 decades AFTER the 2002.

Hmm.

 

I do wonder if the Honda idea could be adapted, tho.  Then a 2002x wouldn't be impossible, either...

 

t

doesn't have old shells kicking around to try stuff like this on, any more.

So you think the wider arms, roll center spacers and coilovers with proper springs for the street would be a good setup?

[Tommy]

12 hours ago, edgefinder said:

My next question, has anyone built a 4 link or A arm front end on an 02? The answer to the first question to answer my question is yes I own a machine shop and help build high end race cars from the ground up. But I am a motorcycle guy used to all the adjustments built in and the rider takes care of the rest

 

Luke 

Maybe no - atleast I can't quickly remember seeing one. With your resources you could be the first one. That kind of change is forbidden in many (most?) race classes and road inspections plus requires great manufacturing skills and tools -  so maybe there's part of the reasons.

[uai]

14 hours ago, TobyB said:

but I've seen a version (and I don't think it was on a 2002) that used

a snap ring machined into a groove to retain the threaded spring collar.

There were multiple grooves, and the collar was cut at an inverted taper,

to act as a lock,

so that you could set the collar at several different heights by simply 

moving the snap ring.  It was kind of ingenious, and having had to decide

'how low' in past (and getting it not quite right) it made a lot of sense.

There are also height not only caster/camber adjustable ones 

 

[DanJer Motorsports]

19 hours ago, edgefinder said:

 

My next question, has anyone built a 4 link or A arm front end on an 02? The answer to the first question to answer my question is yes I own a machine shop and help build high end race cars from the ground up. But I am a motorcycle guy used to all the adjustments built in and the rider takes care of the rest

 

Luke 

Miata’s have an a-arm setup that would be pretty easy to put under a 2002. I personally don’t see the point though. Struts work great, are easy to make work good and 2002s in particular have the ability to install spacers to drop the ball joint after lowering to gain back lost roll center. It’s relatively easy to add more negative camber in the front. If you run toe at 0° you will see almost no increase it tire wear until you get to crazy numbers. But -2°,-3° with 0° will not see much for accelerated tire wear. 
 

Its the rear suspension that sucks. If anyone’s going to spend time swapping suspension it should be in the rear. 

Edited January 27, 2023 by DanJer Motorsports