Head Gasket Problems

[Schnellvintage]

I am hoping the bolt threads in the block are not damaged.  If the head bolts were torqued to spec, then I would thoroughly inspect the block and make sure threads were not stretched. 

 

fwiw,

Matt

Edited March 22, 2023 by Schnellvintage
added info

[Son of Marty]

I'm afraid that trying to add the washers to the bolts one by one with the head as loose as it is is that the holes will fill with liquid and you'll still never get it to clamp down.

[tzei]

I have performed a partial field srtip on a race weekend when i broke one rocker arm. All head bolts had to be removed from exhaust side in order to pull rocker shaft… i didn’t have compressed air to blow block threads and i managed to pull it off and raced the next day. So pulling one by one, cleaning good and adding washer might work. There is oil & water here and there between head, block, gasket so all bets are off. And if fire ring(s) has burned then you’ risk damaging the head.

Leave as is and add washer at your own perill or pull the head, do the work and sleep soundly.

[Dudeland]

6 hours ago, Einspritz said:

I clean the bolt holes using a tap, then forced air, then brake cleaner (the carcinogenic kind) then blow it all out again (into your face).

 

While you're in there, check that there are no cracks at the bolt holes; I've seen that happen with hydro-locking bolts.....

 

The OCD in me says trim your upper radiator hose by 1/4" to eliminate the kink.

 

All good.

I had a block given to me.  I had it fluxed out and every stud hole was cracked, the suspected culprit was hydro-locking when the bolts were put in wet holes. 

 

 

[Reza Taheri]

I have the exact same concern about putting new bolts in contaminated holes. I also have no idea if torquing these bolts down with no washers caused any damage. I've spent 6 years fixing and enjoying this car, I can spend a few extra hours and try to do the job right.

 

Factory bolts/washers are ordered and should be here Monday. I will post an update, ideally next week when everything is done and works, but maybe this weekend when I come across the next concern. 

[Schnellvintage]

I hope you ordered a new head gasket kit along the the head bolts and washers. 
 

[Reza Taheri]

Update:

 

1. Tried the lazy route of removing/replacing each bolt one by one, cleaning holes, and installing new bolt with washer. Still got exhaust fumes in the radiator. 

 

2. Did a complete teardown and reinstall. Still got exhaust fumes in the radiator. 

 

3. Did a leak down test and cylinder 3 would not hold compression. 

 

3. Took the head back to M45, they say everything is fine and each hole holds 48 PSI. They also said the scarring shows evidence of either a bad head gasket or uneven mating surface from the block. 

 

😔 how did I ruin a perfectly good engine

[tech71]

2 hours ago, Reza Taheri said:

😔 how did I ruin a perfectly good engine

It may not have been a perfectly good engine from the beginning, something may have been going on with the block all along.

Sorry

[OldRoller]

But did you still have oil in water, or water in oil? I assume M45 checked the head deck surface for warp? To what extreme was the exhaust in the coolant tested via the strip? A trace, or bubbling in the rad? During the leak down test of #3 was any air flow noticed from the intake, exhaust, block area, valve cover area, or bubbling in the rad?

Loss of pressure with a leak down test causes:

1: Rings

2: Head gasket or head warp

3: Poor valve seating

4: Cracks in combustion chamber

 

The M10 blocks are not known to warp, but I'm sure some have been found to be. I have not seen any in my limited experience.

Other damage (corrosion, bolt holes etc) and frequent on 50 year old engines. 

Heads however are another story. Cracks between valve seats, corrosion in cooling passages, warps, etc. 

My only suggestion would be to find another head, have it checked thoroughly, Straight edge the block front to back and corner to corner. Run a chaser tap in the head bolt holes, clean them completely and reassemble. 

Best of luck!

[tech71]

2 hours ago, OldRoller said:

The M10 blocks are not known to warp

But they have been known to crack in the head bolt holes and web around mains.

Cracking at the head bolt holes can be from hydro lock, over torquing and/or forgetting to install the special head bolt washers.

At this point I see no point in throwing another head at it until that block is checked out completely but whatever. 

At the very least inspect all the head bolt holes with a 10x magnifier and strong light.

Consider another engine, there's a good possibility listed in classifieds  right now.

No easy answers, just painful solutions.. 

Edited August 8, 2023 by tech71

[Son of Marty]

How did you drain the oil/water/crap from the head bolt holes? Even a small bit of liquid will prevent the bolts from clamping the head tight.

[Reza Taheri]

4 hours ago, OldRoller said:

But did you still have oil in water, or water in oil? I assume M45 checked the head deck surface for warp? To what extreme was the exhaust in the coolant tested via the strip? A trace, or bubbling in the rad? During the leak down test of #3 was any air flow noticed from the intake, exhaust, block area, valve cover area, or bubbling in the rad?

Loss of pressure with a leak down test causes:

1: Rings

2: Head gasket or head warp

3: Poor valve seating

4: Cracks in combustion chamber

 

The M10 blocks are not known to warp, but I'm sure some have been found to be. I have not seen any in my limited experience.

Other damage (corrosion, bolt holes etc) and frequent on 50 year old engines. 

Heads however are another story. Cracks between valve seats, corrosion in cooling passages, warps, etc. 

My only suggestion would be to find another head, have it checked thoroughly, Straight edge the block front to back and corner to corner. Run a chaser tap in the head bolt holes, clean them completely and reassemble. 

Best of luck!

I used the blue combustion leak test that turns yellow once the engine warms up. The car drives okay, but does get hot after about a mile. 

 

I didn't notice air escaping anywhere particularly. 

 

M45 said they noticed a valve was sticking so they cleaned it up and rebuilt the head again. They took another .001mm off the deck just to ensure it's smooth and even. 

 

My buddy has a really good straight edge so I'm going to borrow that. 

 

Now for a photo dump

[Reza Taheri]

1 hour ago, Son of Marty said:

How did you drain the oil/water/crap from the head bolt holes? Even a small bit of liquid will prevent the bolts from clamping the head tight.

Brakleen, compressed air, cotton swabs. The hole in the top left corner by the distributor is forever crunchy. Every other bolt when in smooth by hand but that one. 

[jimk]

If the block is drained before removing the head, there won't be antifreeze in the cylinders.

[Son of Marty]

If your top left bolt hole is hard to thread it's most likely that someone at some time forgot the special washer or used too long a bolt in the rear cover and ran the bolt into that head bolt screwing up the threads, you need to retap or use a Heli-coil/Time-sert to fix it.