Tiis w/ Snorkel?

[paulyg]

We all "know" that an air snorkel on the radiator support on a Tii is a clear sign of a replaced nose piece... or do we?

 

Is there evidence that any Tiis left the factory with the carburetor/snorkeled nose piece?

[Mike Self]

Given known previous performances by the BMW factory when 2002s were new. almost anything is possible.  We know the factory assembled various variants in batches--a run of US spec cars of a specific color; a run of tii's etc), so if they were assembling 2002tii's on a given day and ran out of no-snorkel nose panels, do you think they'd stop the assembly line?  

 

All sorts of anomalies crop up regularly:  72's painted Nevada, chrome seat recliners on 72s, etc. so while your snorkel-nosed tii may be a very well done replacement, it's entirely possible that it's original.  I'm sure someone (like Steve) will post pictures of the nose-to-inner fender spot weld--that's a dead giveaway of a replacement--or other places to look.  

 

mike

[conkitchen]

Another anomalous article with tii's seen is the fuel pump accumulator being either parallel or perpendicular to the CV.  

 

Folks forget these cars where mainly hand built by people who smoked and drank frequently while at work and behind the wheel.  

[Cruzr]

I'm with Mike Self on this one. Photographic evidence points to a somewhat "make it work" process when welding these bodies. Even if you were able to interview someone who worked the assembly line during that period, this debate will never go away! Just like the 2020 presidential election!🤣

[conkitchen]

3 minutes ago, Cruzr said:

 Just like the 2020 presidential election!🤣

Or who shot Kennedy. 

 

We are all doomed-that should be my new tag line.

[Son of Marty]

4 hours ago, Mike Self said:

2002tii's on a given day and ran out of no-snorkel nose panels, do you think they'd stop the assembly line?  

No but I'm sure that BMW like almost all manufactures wouldn't start to build any car with out having the pick list of parts filled completely. If BMW was just picking parts from what they had how come no 73 and 74 tii were made with out cowl notches for timing. All Hoffman motors cars up until BMW NA took over in 74 were shipped across the ocean on break bulk ships and were loaded and lashed one at a time at the Mates direction and body damage was common, the use of dedicated roll on roll off car carriers reduced body damage quite a bit but it still happens. Up to this century front end damage on a 02 almost always resulted in replacement of the nose as it is cheaper to do that than sink the man hours into repairing the nose to new car standard. Anyway that's my take on a subject that will keep coming up until we can develop a time machine and go back and look.

[Conserv]

23 minutes ago, Son of Marty said:

No but I'm sure that BMW like almost all manufactures wouldn't start to build any car with out having the pick list of parts filled completely. If BMW was just picking parts from what they had how come no 73 and 74 tii were made with out cowl notches for timing. All Hoffman motors cars up until BMW NA took over in 74 were shipped across the ocean on break bulk ships and were loaded and lashed one at a time at the Mates direction and body damage was common, the use of dedicated roll on roll off car carriers reduced body damage quite a bit but it still happens. Up to this century front end damage on a 02 almost always resulted in replacement of the nose as it is cheaper to do that than sink the man hours into repairing the nose to new car standard. Anyway that's my take on a subject that will keep coming up until we can develop a time machine and go back and look.

+1

 

Thank you.

 

The best advice I can give anyone who owns a “snorkeled” tii, is:

 

Get rid of the snorkel as soon as is practicable! There is no future in having to argue, or even to discuss this issue with every knowledgeable ‘02 person that comes along.. You may convince 20% that your snorkel is original but the other 80% will never be convinced.

 

I replaced the nosepiece on my ‘70 in 1973, when it had about 24,000 miles on it, I replaced the nosepiece on my ‘76 in ‘78, when it had 30,000 miles on it, my ‘73 tii got a new nosepiece in the 1980’s, but — by sheer luck, I’m certain — it got a used tii nosepiece. My point, echoing @Son of Marty, we drove these cars with reckless abandon, especially when they were brand new. And an amazing number of cars, trees, and poles made intimate contact with our nosepieces! If BMW didn’t wreck them on the trip from factory to dealership, we did soon after.

 

I bought my first ‘02 with a wrecked nose: needed a nosepiece, hood, etc. After solving that problem, I turned around and got an education in trailing throttle oversteer…

 

It needed much more than a nosepiece when I was done with it (below)! 🙄

 

That’s my take!

 

Got snorkel? Lose it!
 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

[Charles in PA]

My 74tii has a snorkel.  I know the nose piece is not original.  The service records that came with the car when I bought it in 2021 (they stretch back to the car's purchase by the then second owner in 1976) detail extensive body work in 1992, including a new nose piece -- with a snorkel.  Soon after I bought the car, I connected with the owner of the body shop that did the job.  He recalled the tii and even gave me a bunch of pictures he had taken of the car when it was in his shop.  He also shared that he didn't know that a tii nose piece should not have had a snorkel or that the seams at the top where the nose piece joins the quarter panels should have been sealed.  So not only is my tii snorkeled it has unsealed seams as well! 

[conkitchen]

is it really gonna matter in another 50 years? Besides at the rate things are headed it may be more like 10 years. 

 

We're all doomed

Edited September 27, 2023 by conkitchen

[visionaut]

I’m convinced when I see an original owner 02 with an engine bay pic they took upon delivery…

Yeah, Franz and the boys could free-lance it a bit on minor bits on the assembly line, but methinks they know when they’re building a batch of tii chassis.  And yes, IMHO, unless by counting mistake, they’d hold a tii batch while waiting for proper noses.  We don’t have contention on rear subframe boxing on tii - because, again, in IMHO they couldn’t deviate on structural elements that far.

 

(contrarian)

🫠

[Son of Marty]

As the bodies of the 02 and tii are the same other than the snorkel and the nose goes on fairly early in the manufacturing  line wouldn't, if the wrong nose was used, they just put the correct vin number, engine and brakes to make it the right model, if not there must be carbed 02's out there with no snorkel, as they would use what ever they had,  anyone seen one?

[conkitchen]

6 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

As the bodies of the 02 and tii are the same other than the snorkel....

Not entirely correct. The chassis had a hole drilled for the fuel pump wiring, a fuel pump mounting plate welded underneath (see above about being perpendicular or parallel) and brackets attached for the air box, etc... A few little minor things but enough to likely be a dedicated run with trained people.  

 

But this is semantics and we are all doomed. 

[Mike Self]

20 hours ago, Son of Marty said:

All Hoffman motors cars up until BMW NA took over in 74 were shipped across the ocean on break bulk ships and were loaded and lashed one at a time at the Mates direction and body damage was common,

I can attest to that....after waiting 4 months to take delivery of my '69 due to an East Coast dock strike, the dealer called with good and bad news.  The good news was that my car was in; the bad news was that the driver's door was damaged:  did I want the car?  Uh, yeah... Hoffman paid for repairing the door, and also provided a quart of factory pack (Glassurit) paint.  

 

And apparently my '73 also incurred shipping damage, because the driver's door is definitely a replacement, complete with black primer and a part number sticker inside the door.  That occurred before delivery to the dealer, because none of the paperwork I have from the original owner shows any bodywork to the driver's door.  

 

mike

 

 

[Ensign]

I have some useless information to add:

When I was searching for a 2002, I came across a tii in Hilton Head, VIN 276808. Here are a couple of photos:

 

 

 

I had a few conversations with the owner/seller, via e-mail, and when I questioned him about the snorkel and if the car had sustained front-end damage, he insisted that the car was completely original and was never in an accident.

Coincidentally, the car I ended up buying is VIN 2760851, only 43 tii's after the one pictured above. Mine does not have a snorkel. I would assume the two cars would have been built one day apart, at the most.

[Conserv]

5 hours ago, Ensign said:

I have some useless information to add:

When I was searching for a 2002, I came across a tii in Hilton Head, VIN 276808. Here are a couple of photos:

 

 

 

I had a few conversations with the owner/seller, via e-mail, and when I questioned him about the snorkel and if the car had sustained front-end damage, he insisted that the car was completely original and was never in an accident.

Coincidentally, the car I ended up buying is VIN 2760851, only 43 tii's after the one pictured above. Mine does not have a snorkel. I would assume the two cars would have been built one day apart, at the most.

But I’d still want to know:

 

1.) was he the original owner — if not, all bets are off; and,

 

2.) if he was the original owner, did he accompany the car from the factory to the dealership, and while it was at the dealership — if not, all bets are off…

 

I met a guy with a snorkeled tii maybe ten years ago. He swore the snorkel was original because he purchased the car from the “original owner”. I started asking him about the documentation that came with the car, since he was buying it from the original owner. “Oh, I don’t have any of the original purchase documents because the guy I bought from bought it when it was three years old.” His reasoning, he explained, was that little-to-nothing bad was likely to happen in a mere three years. 🙄

 

Since then, I suspect not every “original owner” was actually the original owner. 😉

 

Best regards,

 

Steve