Has the Market fallen this hard for our beloved cars?

[resra]

I don't know how we missed this one! Yes a lot of things on the car is done distastefully but a driver for that price is crazy. First thing I would do is change those wheels, change the seats and the center console! Very simple and easy.

 

No Reserve: 1971 BMW 1602 for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $8,500 on October 1, 2024 (Lot #164,996) | Bring a Trailer

BRINGATRAILER.COM

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Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 1971 BMW 1602 at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #164,996.

 

 

[markmac]

Yes, it has.  The Baikal 73tii yesterday or day before on BAT reached $57k which was short of the reserve (whatever that might have been).  I thought that was a pretty good number really for where things are at the moment.  It was a Coupeking resto so odds are the owner is upside down at that number.  It is what it is....a good time to be a buyer.

[Leucadian]

Also the S14 Colorado alumni that sold a few years back for 60k.  RNM at 40K this time around.

 

S14-Powered 1973 BMW 2002 5-Speed for sale on BaT Auctions - closed on October 3, 2024 (Lot #165,293) | Bring a Trailer

BRINGATRAILER.COM

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Bid for the chance to own a S14-Powered 1973 BMW 2002 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #165,293.

 

 

But then there are still some bonkers numbers for recent auctions, like this one:

 

Modified 1975 BMW 2002 5-Speed for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $53,500 on September 18, 2024 (Lot #163,129) | Bring a Trailer

BRINGATRAILER.COM

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Bid for the chance to own a Modified 1975 BMW 2002 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #163,129.

 

[conkitchen]

Market conditions right now, like an old mans prostate are in a state of hyperplasia. It's having a fit.  

[resra]

Oh no… it says Zak is typing….😂😂

[walkinfool]

3 hours ago, resra said:

I don't know how we missed this one! Yes a lot of things on the car is done distastefully but a driver for that price is crazy. First thing I would do is change those wheels, change the seats and the center console! Very simple and easy.

 

No Reserve: 1971 BMW 1602 for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $8,500 on October 1, 2024 (Lot #164,996) | Bring a Trailer

BRINGATRAILER.COM

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Bid for the chance to own a No Reserve: 1971 BMW 1602 at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #164,996.

 

 

 I followed this auction and yes, there were plenty of things to criticize but overall, it was a solid car.  I was really shocked to see the hammer price well below $8500. 

[Zak]

Thank God ! It's about time.

 

When I got into this in 1982 you could have purchased a solid running 02 for $500. And a good solid running Tii was about $2,500. In 1984 I also ran into a really clean 1600GT being sold with a spare complete  parts car for $4,000. Throughout the 90s a good tii set you back about $6,500. And. look what's happened now. It's all become obscene, almost as bad as the Porsche scene.

 

When I was a senior in high school I purchased my 1600 for $500, and my best friend purchased his 1962 Porsche 356 "B" model for $2,500. We used those cars as urban beaters to commute to college. I remember helping my friend drop the motor on the 356 so that we can replace the clutch disk, which was slipping. We didn't have enough money to deal with the flywheel and pressure plate. They had some grooves, but otherwise looked OK ! We just scuffed them up with sandpaper, put everything back together, and the car was on the road again the next day. At the time we were just 22 years of age and did the work while consuming ample amounts of cheap Strohs beer. And. I didn't have to pay for that case of cheap beer because my dad worked as a maintenance man at the brewery. 

 

Across the alley was a small stuffy shop which just sold old owners manuals to cars. We often wondered how that place stayed open, speculating it must have been some front to a nefarious underworld operation. Either way, Jay Leno would sometimes drop into the shop. And, he took some interest on our wrenching on the BMW and the Porsche. My friend is Italian and Mr. Leno would always say hello to his parents. Who knows, we could have contributed to the popularity of these cars among the folks like Mr. Leno an others with deep pockets. 

 

Getting back on track; what has happened to this hobby and the classic car scene in general is simply obscene. The young urban professionals are dropping $75K on a tii on Bring A Trailer, thinking it's a great deal compared to a short wheel base 1960s era Porsche 911, which now costs $225K.  Back during the 80s these 911s cost between $5k - $10K. Worse, many of these cars on the auction block have inferior paint and body work. These cars have become a commodity to be traded among these folks, many with superiority complexes. The 3.0CS coupes have always been a magnet for the status anguished "Elite" or the more eccentric debutantes such as the Hollywood set stylist or the owner of the art moving business just across town in Pasadena.  But, now, they've also discovered the "Tii". Seinfeld has one, so it must legit. I just made an extra $100K. So, why not splurge. It's not like spending $200K + on a 911. $75K is not such a bad deal. 

 

And, the shops have tailored their business models to accommodate this new class of Patricians . 

This is one of the primary reasons I seldom attend any of the events. 

 

I hope the market falls flat and these cars become near worthless. I've had enough of this speculative obscenity and arrogance. During conversation with a young 02 owner-newbie and enthusiast at a local morning car show I mentioned I had a 1960s era 02. And, he replied "Yes, I have one too, but I also have a 912". Ooooohhhhh ! Excuse me. You have a 912, really ! There was a time when you were ridiculed for owning a 912 because it was considered as a "Poor Man's" Porsche. But, now such a car commands bragging rights among the arrogant Yuppies of LA. After learning this guy is the organizer to the monthly auto event at the Merry-Go-Round in Griffith Park I never returned. He can go and mount one of the horses on the Merry-Go-Round. It's probably a more exciting ride than his Porsche 912.

 

The car on BAT has really short tires compared to stock. This translates to a 15mph drop in top speed. That's insane, especially on a 1600 with its 4.11 diff. The effective final drive ratio is 4.72 with these tires. What was the owner thinking ?

Edited October 8 by Zak

[Son of Marty]

I'll nominate the photographer for a Emmy in the category of  pictures that look like it shows' everything while keeping the rust out of the picture. Wouldn't a 71 1600 have sway bars? And as a personal note do not drive a car with out head rests, I spent 5 months in a spine injurie recovery ward and one of the guys was driving his restored 57 Chev to a show when he was rear ended which resulted in a neck fusion, he was not a happy camper. But yes the price of all collector cars is way down across the board, IMO due to uncertainty in the world today.

[conkitchen]

1 hour ago, Zak said:

....And, the shops have tailored their business models to accommodate this new class of Patricians . 

 

 

 

[ISS Werks]

Parts prices are certainly not dropping, costs for restoration are still going up.  I'm right now trying to source basic tii brake parts and my normal channels are drying up

[Dudeland]

Cars are a waste of money. The only way to make money is not to use them; what is the point? 

(Feeling defeated and not looking forward to the M/C CF tomorrow)

 

 

[cda951]

3 hours ago, Dudeland said:

Cars are a waste of money. The only way to make money is not to use them; what is the point? 

(Feeling defeated and not looking forward to the M/C CF tomorrow)

 

 

 

Cars are for driving, not for speculating! @Dudeland, It seems your car has been laid up for a long time while you build it, but don't give up. I know the feeling of staring into a dark hole with what you want the car to be seeming a long way off.

 

I've worked for the same Porsche/BMW repair shop for almost 20 years, and have seen the transition from a majority of old-school customers who spend money on their cars because they love and enjoy them to the flipper/speculator type, and it's disheartening. Sure, it can be more lucrative for business, but sucks the joy out of the thing. I am thankful that we still have a good amount of customers who are still into driving their cars.

 

Since we are discussing numbers, I bought my '73tii from a customer in 2013 for $8K, running and driving car, a bit of forward inner rocker rust from the sunroof drains, but had all the right modifications: E21 320iS LSD and Recaros, smoothed-in Turbo-style fender flares, larger sway bars, etc. It was my daily driver for a long time, has been driven to road rallies in Baja CA, Mexico and to Alaska, has been a great car, I beat the crap out of it and it has never let me down (OK, fatigue crack of a brake hard line during the Alaska trip, but fixed in the field). 

 

The point being, once a car is in driving condition, use it as it was designed! Vintage/fun rallies and cross-country road trips in old cars have been some of the most rewarding experiences my girlfriend and I have had, have seen many amazing places and have met some great people while on the road. Even if the car does break down, the story that goes with it and the repair are often worth it.

 

I don't really care what my 02 is worth because I do not intend to sell it.

 

 

Edited October 5 by cda951

[Mike Self]

46 minutes ago, cda951 said:

The point being, once a car is in driving condition, use it as it was designed!

 

46 minutes ago, cda951 said:

I don't really care what my 02 is worth because I do not intend to sell it.

Well put.  02s aren't meant to be trailered to concours--they're meant to be driven on twisty roads (driver wearing a big grin), taken on a 1600 mile round trip for a three day meeting with a bunch of other equally enthusiastic 02ers--not languishing in a garage under a cover (unless the roads are salty!) waiting for the next Big Car Show.  

 

On the good side of (possibly) 02 prices retreating--it means more folks will be able to afford 'em, and keep the survivors going for another 50 years.

 

mike

[NYNick]

The car that I sold on BaT last year just went to auction again and went RNM at WELL below what I got for it.

Market has shifted across the board. 911's you couldn't get for $60k last year are now below $40K. Still, this is when the really bad cars come up for sale.

[JQ02]

I overpaid for mine at a peak in the spring of 2022. I'd prefer the prices on 2002s come down because they are - and I believe will continue to be - drivers cars. Not collectibles. I'm spending a lot of money to modernize mine because I've loved them since 1985 and I want the power and comfort of a new car. I don't anticipate getting my money back on the cost of the improvements. I'll prolly also get a stock Tii at some point and leave it alone. Ok. Maybe a 5 speed and a decent stereo.

I suspect a lot of the folks that @Zak is referring to prolly buy one thinking it's cool and then realize it's not a modern car and sell it - like when my son was excited when his uncle gave him an Atari 2600 with 150 games only to find out the graphics were 10 years behind what he was used to.

BaT is very fickle. 1600s are not part of the alert for 2002s, so they don't get the same audience. Several of us have actually pointed that out to them. If two people in Jay Leno's "More Money Than Brains Club" (I admire Jay Leno. It's his quote) both want a car it can go sky high and then the next week a similar car will go for a fraction.