Has the Market fallen this hard for our beloved cars?

[JWT]

17 hours ago, Zak said:

Thank God ! It's about time.

 

When I got into this in 1982 you could have purchased a solid running 02 for $500. And a good solid running Tii was about $2,500. In 1984 I also ran into a really clean 1600GT being sold with a spare complete  parts car for $4,000. Throughout the 90s a good tii set you back about $6,500. And. look what's happened now. It's all become obscene, almost as bad as the Porsche scene.

 

When I was a senior in high school I purchased my 1600 for $500, and my best friend purchased his 1962 Porsche 356 "B" model for $2,500. We used those cars as urban beaters to commute to college. I remember helping my friend drop the motor on the 356 so that we can replace the clutch disk, which was slipping. We didn't have enough money to deal with the flywheel and pressure plate. They had some grooves, but otherwise looked OK ! We just scuffed them up with sandpaper, put everything back together, and the car was on the road again the next day. At the time we were just 22 years of age and did the work while consuming ample amounts of cheap Strohs beer. And. I didn't have to pay for that case of cheap beer because my dad worked as a maintenance man at the brewery. 

 

Across the alley was a small stuffy shop which just sold old owners manuals to cars. We often wondered how that place stayed open, speculating it must have been some front to a nefarious underworld operation. Either way, Jay Leno would sometimes drop into the shop. And, he took some interest on our wrenching on the BMW and the Porsche. My friend is Italian and Mr. Leno would always say hello to his parents. Who knows, we could have contributed to the popularity of these cars among the folks like Mr. Leno an others with deep pockets. 

 

Getting back on track; what has happened to this hobby and the classic car scene in general is simply obscene. The young urban professionals are dropping $75K on a tii on Bring A Trailer, thinking it's a great deal compared to a short wheel base 1960s era Porsche 911, which now costs $225K.  Back during the 80s these 911s cost between $5k - $10K. Worse, many of these cars on the auction block have inferior paint and body work. These cars have become a commodity to be traded among these folks, many with superiority complexes. The 3.0CS coupes have always been a magnet for the status anguished "Elite" or the more eccentric debutantes such as the Hollywood set stylist or the owner of the art moving business just across town in Pasadena.  But, now, they've also discovered the "Tii". Seinfeld has one, so it must legit. I just made an extra $100K. So, why not splurge. It's not like spensing $200K + on a 911. $75K is not such a bad deal. 

 

And, the shops have tailored their business models to accommodate this new class of Patricians . 

This is one of the primary reasons I seldom attend any of the events. 

 

I hope the market falls flat and these cars become near worthless. I've had enough of this speculative obscenity and arrogance. During conversation with a young 02 owner-newbie and enthusiast at a local morning car show I mentioned I had a 1960s era 02. And, he replied "Yes, I have one too, but I also have a 912". Ooooohhhhh ! Excuse me. You have a 912, really ! There was a time you were ridiculed for owning a 912 because it was considered as a "Poor Man's" Porsche. But, now such a car commands bragging rights among the arrogant Yuppies of LA. After learning this guy is the organizer to the monthly auto event at the Merry-Go-Round in Griffith Park I never returned. He can go and mount one of the horses on the Merry-Go-Round. It's probably a more exciting ride than his Porsche 912.

 

The car on BAT has really short tires compared to stock. This translates to a 15mph drop in top speed. That's insane, especially on a 1600 with its 4.11 diff. The effective final drive ratio is 4.72 with these tires. What was the owner thinking ?

Slavs??

[kbmb02]

18 hours ago, Zak said:

It's probably a more exciting ride than his Porsche 912.

 

Really, Slavs?

 

I had a '68 912, 30 years ago, can still recall the joy of PCH curves through Big Rock in Malibu. Those P-cars had a great center of gravity. (Soon after that a '72 VW Westfalia Bus - also a joy on that same ride - for different reasons -> center of gravity not so impressive.) -KB

[der Heilerin]

I’d chime in to add similar thoughts to all here. 
 

The main point is that things that aren’t being made anymore will continue to escalate in price. From a Model A Ford to any beachfront property. 
 

The 02 I had in the early 90s was $4500 and solid. When I got an 02 recently, it wasn’t anywhere near that price. Though I wanted it to be. That segment isn’t the only one with rising prices. The one were most familiar with is the Porsche segment specifically during and after the pandemic. 
 

I’d add that the Barrett Jackson auctions and BaT have done far more to inflate prices than enthusiast demand. Specific cars are now looked at as accessories instead of for guys who want to enjoy them. Pick a muscle car from the 60s. They’re largely resto modded and rebuilt far better than they were when new. Not really my taste, since I’m mostly a purist, but upgrades like brakes and lighting do make sense. 
 

Are they now worth six figures?  I don’t think so, but that’s IMO. 
 

BaT has gotten kinda bonkers for some cars, and you do need to read the bidding history. Many times there’s a grudge match and the price far exceeds the market. 
 

There remain owners who want to see their car cared for by an able next owner, which makes the stories even more rich and interesting. 

Edited October 5 by der Heilerin

[NMDerek]

will it move?

 

cargurus.com

WWW.CARGURUS.COM

 

[Zak]

4 hours ago, kbmb02 said:

It's probably a more exciting ride than his Porsche 912.

These days, "Bang for the Buck", I'd say the Merry-Go-Around is more exciting.

 

30 years ago a clean 912 cost about $5K- $10K. And now ? They're selling in the $50K+ range.

 

My friend purchased a very clean example in 1985 for $4K. And, he was just a 20 year old working class kid. That's not who owns them these days. 

 

As far as handling, you're correct. They handle better than a 911, as they don't have as much rear weight bias.

Edited October 5 by Zak

[Zak]

On 10/4/2024 at 10:14 AM, Leucadian said:

ut then there are still some bonkers numbers for recent auctions, like this one:

 

Modified 1975 BMW 2002 5-Speed for sale on BaT Auctions - sold for $53,500 on September 18, 2024 (Lot #163,129) | Bring a Trailer

BRINGATRAILER.COM

---

Bid for the chance to own a Modified 1975 BMW 2002 5-Speed at auction with Bring a Trailer, the home of the best vintage and classic cars online. Lot #163,129.

Ridiculous !

[Zak]

My dog Maxwell almost relieved himself on the Borranis at Woodley Park.

There was a cheer leading Ferrari goone squad on lawn chairs about to spring up and come to the rescue. 

What they were forgetting is that this is Van Nuys, not the Beverly Hills Country Club, where they should move their pompous affair. 

 

This Ferrari Lusso probably costs in the millions $$$ these days. And, that's much more outrageous and obscene than my dog Maxwell urinating on its wheels.

[der Heilerin]

34 minutes ago, Zak said:

My dog Maxwell almost relieved himself on the Borranis at Woodley Park.

There was a cheer leading Ferrari goone squad on lawn chairs about to spring up and come to the rescue. 

What they were forgetting is that this is Van Nuys, not the Beverly Hills Country Club, where they should move their pompous affair. 

 

This Ferrari Lusso probably costs in the millions $$$ these days. And, that's much more outrageous and obscene than my dog Maxwell urinating on its wheels.

That’s funny. 
 

I know a very well grounded colleague from a previous employer whose father purchased a Lusso in the early 70s. Dark blue if I recall. To him it’s just an enjoyable weekend driver, and they head out to rural restaurants for Saturday dinner together. 
 

But I know what you mean, these cars have escalated so much, even driving one is out of the question for many of us. 

[NYNick]

Don't get me started on the first car I ever owned in 1971...a 1968 912. It's a better car than the 02.

There. I said it.

[TobyB]

If you want a street car, a BMW makes a nice fast fun commuter that you might do a track day in without blowing it up.

 

If you want a sports car that would rather be a race car, a Porsche is a far better place to start.

Imagine if they'd put the engine in the right end to start with?  That would have kicked ASS!

 

Quote

30 years ago a clean 912 cost about $5K- $10K

 

Not in this town, Slav-o-matik.  I was looking. 

A dumpster fire chrome bumper with lots of rust started at $5k.  In 1992.  A NICE 912 started at $15k, which

was more than you paid for a new Saturn when they came out.  And at that price, you may as well have bought a scruffy

plastic- bumpered early 911 with a good engine...  The chrome bumpers had already hit $25k.

Oh.  And the parts?  If you had to ask, they sent you to 

Bug-Aid.  

 

Likewise, I didn't buy a $3k tii in 1998, because it had a blown head gasket.  And rust.  And dents.  And had been 

rear- ended and repaired badly.  The NICE tiis were $8k and up, when you could buy a half- decent driver for $4k,

but a really nice car cost more than the $10k+ or so it'd cost to do a NICE paint job and a refreshed engine.

 

And this was back when you could buy a house with a yard in Seattle for $250k...

 

Was there.  

 

t

behating on the 'beloved', immortally.

[Zak]

4 hours ago, NYNick said:

Don't get me started on the first car I ever owned in 1971...a 1968 912. It's a better car than the 02.

There. I said it.

It's a two seater with a five speed trans and an air cooled 4cyl  1.6L  with twin carbs. And, it sounds like a VW with a similar twin carb set-up. It also has little to no luggage space and the rear seat is useless other than serving as extra luggage space. Other than the 5 speed, the car didn't impress me too much, as it is far less versatile than an 02. Yes, it has nice acceleration out of the hole like all air cooled Porsches and VWs. There is no driveshaft and the engine and trans sit over the rear wheels, giving them a nice bite. One of my friends parked his 356 and purchased an 02 to commute to school. Getting in and out of the Porsche gets tiring. I always preferred the BMWs over the Porsches. 

 

Call me crazy, but I had a 1.8L Fiat 124 Syder with a 5 speed. And, I thought it was a fun car, It was in excellent shape. And, I only paid $1,500 for it in 1982. The same year I purchased my first BMW 1600 for $500. 

[Zak]

43 minutes ago, TobyB said:

Quote

0 years ago a clean 912 cost about $5K- $10K

 

Not in this town, Slav-o-matik.  I was looking. 

A dumpster fire chrome bumper with lots of rust started at $5k.  In 1992.  A NICE 912 started at $15k, which

was more than you paid for a new Saturn when they came out. 

I checked out a really nice 912 back in 2010 here in LA. The asking price was $9,000.

[popovm]

44 minutes ago, TobyB said:

 

And this was back when you could buy a house with a yard in Seattle for $250k...

 

$250k budget? Can I interest you in a studio apartment in Lynnwood? 🥲

[popovm]

9 minutes ago, Zak said:

Call me crazy, but I had a 1.8L Fiat 124 Syder with a 5 speed. And, I thought it was a fun car, It was in excellent shape. And, I only paid $1,500 for it in 1982.

 

Hey, at least those have stayed the same price! 

1978 fiat 124 spider for sale by owner - Arlington, WA - craigslist

SEATTLE.CRAIGSLIST.ORG

---

Fiat Spyder 124 No Dents in body, Brand new exhaust.,Nice Stereo. Spare tire. Needs new seats it's a...

Fix it again, Slavs! 

[Zak]

2 hours ago, popovm said:

Fix it again, Slavs! 

OMG !
Except for the color that's the identical car, same year, same bumpers etc. The convertible top folds back really easy. There are only two small latches at the top of the windshield frame, and back it goes. Putting it up is just as easy. Just reach back and grab the handle on it and pull it over your head and latch it closed. I used to do it when I was at a stop light. I drove that thing all over Hollywood when I was 17, picking up masters from the underworld adult film producers ( Scumbags ! ) and delivering them to a dubbing facility in the valley, near Woodley Park, the site of the annual SoCal Vintage BMW show. Video ( VHS& Beta) were new and all the rave.  

 

Before we get sidetracked, getting back to the Fiat; It served me well. I never had any problems with it. It was very dependable. But, my older cousin (Jerk !) borrowed the car for a weekend and didn't return it for six months. I always liked Fiats, especially the older ones. When I got it back it was in poor shape. And I sold it and purchased my 1968 1600 in 1982.

 

Back in the homeland my uncle had a dark blue 1969 Fiat 1100R. It has a single Weber side draft carb and is good for about 50hp. These were very reliable cars. One of these days I'd like to pick up one, if I ever find it here in the US. It's visible in the family pics I've attached, behind my Mom in light blue outfit standing with my two aunts. In one of the pics I'm kneeling next to my brother who is standing with my (Babushka ) grandmother behind him.

Edited October 6 by Zak