engine and drivetrain BMW 2002/tii prices VS early 911 T/E/S (1967 - 1973)

[Guest Anonymous]

I have been following along various early porsche 911 websites for the past 5-6 years - was so close to pulling the trigger on a beautiful 1971 Blood Orange 911s (back in 2002) ... then of course the Schnitzer engined ALPINA 2002 came into my life. No regrets of course on making that purchase, however that 1971 911s that I could have had for $26k (like I said, hear perfect condition, matching numbers, fresh motor, leather sport seats etc.,) would probably be at least $50-60k and likely more. The 1972-1973 "S" models that are in top condition are getting between $70 and $80k I am reading. For crying out loud there is a 1971 T on ebay now that has 10 bids at $32k... a 911T!!! It is interesting that the tii has not appreciated like that - good ones of any year certainly do get good money, but not like the Porsche's are getting.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Porsche-911-911T-1971-Porsche-911-T-Targa-70-000-original-miles_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ10156QQihZ004QQitemZ140185674355QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW

[daniswaytough]

thank god 02's havn't increased in value like that......yet......

when cars get that expensive they start becoming objectified show pieces instead of thrashed, lovingly driven romances

[osbourne]

I suspect that at least part of the reason that 02s (even Tii) remain a bargain is that, due to the high production numbers and relatively low original price, they never were considered to be that big a deal, compared to the far less plentiful and much more expensive 911s.

The 911 has always been surrounded with a "mystique", and it's looks are still stunning, IMHO.

Also, I get the impression, from reading this forum, that today's typical 02 owners are significantly younger (and, maybe financially less "well off")than the average 911 owner.

The 02 (including Tii) seems to me to be a FAR easier car to live with......easier/cheaper maintenance, far more practical (roomy, significantly better fuel economy, and isn't known for eating tires), and the performance (especially the Tii) is still very adequate for today's driving conditions. Also, you can probably get away with more "spirited" driving in an 02 (let's face it, the 2002 just doesn't shout out "fast car" to the uninitiated) than in ANY 911, which has a reputation for speed that EVERYONE knows about, and that the cops are drawn to like flies to dung.

As one who's first love was, is and (probably) always will be the Porsche 356, I can tell you to count your blessings that the 2002 remains so affordable. I mean, I'd LOVE to buy another 356 to restore, while continuing to drive the one I now have. 10 or 15 years ago, that would have been possible (if I had been making any money 10 or 15 years ago...), but, now; forget it. The price of a really nice Tii would only be enough to buy a "parts car"/basket case/major rust restoration project of the 356 line.

[jerry]

thank god 02's havn't increased in value like that......yet......

when cars get that expensive they start becoming objectified show pieces instead of thrashed, lovingly driven romances

agreed....

i used to LOVE the old 356's and for a brief moment owned a rust bucket back in 1987, but being a poor student at the time and the (then) scarcity of parts, set me straight. was a time a used 356 could be had for about $800-1500. my brother had two convertibles at the same time in the mid 70's that he paid no more than $900 each for. my father gave them away to get rid of them.

now those 356's are so inflated that i no longer covet them as i once did. still like em, but would never buy one.

i, too, hope the 02's stay affordable. if i want an investment i'll play the stock market (i do, btw). save the porsches, ferraris etc., for the moneyied-class. i'm sure, in time these 02's will start to rise in value, but never to the extent of the porsches. the fit and finish just is not up to par on the 02's like they were in the 356's. i understand that up to 1968, all Porsches body panels and doors were fitted by hand, to perfection.

[WH]

The early Porsche cars have been on fire the past 2-3 years, stupid money if you ask me. Some early 911, 356's have jumped in price over 100%, 150% or more in 3 years.

It won't last much longer, the market will correct itself just like the muscle car craze has died down some. (read many $150K muscle cars last year are $75K this year, many Hemis Cuda's are 3/4 price now, or $170-$250K, not $350K+) Still the early 911's are never going to be $6,000 cars like the 1972 911T targa 1 owner car that I bought in 1997 was. Should have kept that one and sold my Alpina's instead! Oh well. A good early 911S will bring stupid money on the net right now, not sure why being they'e ok cars to drive, but not super rare. I just think all those new doctors and lawyers are discovering "old" vintage Porsches now and are buying not worrying about how much $ they pay. It's cheaper than a new one, right?

Head over to SCM (sports car market newsletter, http://www.sportscarmarket.com/). Been reading that rag since 1995 I think. Not always right on the market trends, but well worthwhile to get over most other car mags.

BMW's just don't have the Panache that a Porsche does, People that have money want a sports car, a 2002 just isn't one. It's a sports sedan and it's not from Stuttgart. Which for many is enough reason not to look at a BMW.

Seen the prices of Lotus cortinas, Alfa's and other "earlier" made sport sedans than the 2002? They'd doubled and tripled in price, but not the 2002. BMW's are hardly ever a good collector car it seems.... for some reason. I keep hoping that'll change, but apparently not. I should have bought that lotus cortina instead years ago instead of my 2002, last one on ebay was up to $35K or more before the auction was pulled by the owner, car sold. Even my MG's have been better cars to own long term than my BMW's. Sold my MGC GT for $18,000 this year! haven't had the same luck with my Alpina's, and they're much more rare than a MGC.

My take on 356's??? Not something I'd own. I would rather buy a simlar year Healey than a Porsche, which thankfully I did. Have 3 in the garage, nowdays I couldn't afford to get em. A good Healey is $35-$45K now, perfect ones $65K+ I do like the early 911's and wish I would have bought one when they where reasonable. Oh well, how many cars can one own? I have my share of good ones now.

WH

[osbourne]

Take it from a 44 year Porsche 356 owner: you don't want the 2002 to become collectible, if you still want to be able to drive the livin' snot out of them, and enjoy them as they were made to be enjoyed. The "down" side of that is that many good, restorable 02s will go to the crusher, rather than be restored or become parts donors. The "up" side is that we'll be able to afford to own and drive them for a long time to come. Also, when a car becomes "collectible", it also a target of professional car thieves. Open-top 356s are particularly targeted, these days. One of the reasons I enjoy my MGs and my 02 so much is that no body bothers them. I can park it at a restaurant, or overnight at an inn or B&B (I never stay at national chain hotels/motels, nor eat at "chain" restaurants) and be pretty comfortable about the car still being there in the morning. My 356, being a "driver" coupe, is still somewhat secure, but I wonder for how much longer.

[02Nut]

I completely agree the early 911's have really jumped in price over the last 3 years. I've met a few long time owners of early 911's and they are equally surprised by the price increase - a couple even commented they could not afford to buy their car if they had to purchase at current market prices.

I'm figuring '02 prices may rise simply because of the ever increasing costs for new parts.

[Harv]

356's are still cool.

John

[Ray-2002tii]

I'm not going to be popular with my opinion, but here is my take. All the 911's, 912's, 356's etc. I see every weekend are shinning examples of the fine cars Porsche designed and owners cherrish and respect. Even my fellow BMW owners with E9's of the same age as the 2002's follow the Porsche owner's creed keeping their cars very original using correct parts from the correct years. I think that is what car collectors look for and are willing to pay top dollar for vintage german cars in the correct original design. Now look at so many 2002's. So many posts on this board deal with what brakes from what Volvo can I fit on my car? Who has used what seats in their cars? What goofy looking wheel will fit what car? Should I paint my car pearl purple from "Big Daddy Roth" or stick to Camaro orange? Even wood floormats? 3 most important words in vehicle value.....Original, Original, Original! Let the bashing begin! Love you guys!!

[osbourne]

Yeah, what Ray said. He's absolutely right, and I bet that even those who'll castigate him for his position know that he is right.

Sure, if your name is on the title, you can do whatever you want to your 02......just don't expect the rest of us to appreciate all of the "finer points" of your bastardization of a genuine automotive icon.

That having been said, I can't say that I haven't enjoyed looking at a few heavily modified 02s before. But, given a choice between a heavily modified car, and a bone stock 02 same age and of similar condition; I'll take bone stock, and be willing to pay more for it, every time.

[Harv]

Ray, I think your right.

Everyone knows that a car with mods will never be worth as much as an original stocker. My car will never be worth what I have in it and it will never be worth as much as, say, Bill's Touring tii.

However, o2's seem to like being moded and it kind of goes along with the personality of many of the owners. Sorta what happened to the Alfa world. So many spiders and GTV's with cams, webbers on and on. Now it's the original Alfas that are worth the big bucks. Even Brelinas are going for good coin. Good God! You couldn't give one of those things away 10 years ago. Alfa guys used to use them (and Alfetas) as winter beaters.

John

[Arshloch]

I had conversation with a Euro junk yard owner and he informed me that he had crushed hundreds of them in the 90's, while stating that "every one wants to restore the bloody thing now and buy good parts".The 02 is rediscovered again. I hope we may have our share of joy with these little cars and make them into nice time machines while it's still relatively easily accomplished. I think that an early 02s or better yet the first 1600-s from 67' are the ones to keep! They just might appreciate the double of they are worth in the next 5 years or so.

[WH]

I think some have "hit the nail on the head" here. Problem with many 2002's is just that they're not stock. Owners modify them to suit their needs or wants. Most 2002 owners don't value stock cars much more than nicely modified ones, in that they won't pay 2-3 times the price for a nicely done stock restoration with numbers matching block etc, over a simlar car with "tastefully" done mods. Maybe it's the demographics of the owners and their budgets, maybe it's due to the high number of 2002's made. Not sure. But in any case, the 2002 should continue on at a modest growth rate of value based upon inflation, not the 50-100% jumps we've noticed in the Porsche or other collector car markets.

It being said if you have $20K+ to blow on a car.... what would you pick in the market today? A Porsche 911? A Mercedes, Lotus, BMW or what? I personally would not look at a BMW to buy for collectability, I'd look to buy to drive. That's the difference I think, BMW's are looked at as "drivers", Porsches are look at as "collectable".

WH

[osbourne]

I think that what keeps 356s, 911s, MGs, Triumphs, Austin-Healeys (including Sprites) and a few others going is the fact that, although many own them as "objects", many more of us own them mainly because we enjoy DRIVING them. If they weren't being driven, parts wouldn't become worn out, bent, broken, etc, and there would be no market for replacement (OE type or "aftermarket") parts.

My philosophy on old cars has always been "if I can't DRIVE it, I have no desire to OWN it".

Now, as to potentially collectible BMWs, here's a list of BMWs that I would be happy to own (besides the 02s), in no particular order:

1.) 2000CS

2.) 2800CS/3.0 CS

3.) Any of the pre-70s, 4 door, 4 cyl. sedans

4.) Any pre-70s, 4 cylinder Alpina model

5.) 2500/2800/Bavaria

I think that the 503 (?), 507, CSL and a couple of others already ARE considered to be very collectible. I wonder if/how many of the ones on my own, personal list will eventually become collectible?

[WH]

Interesting what you say Bud, in that you want a car to "drive" not an object of desire. What fuels collectability is a combination of both. A car must be attractive, pleasing to be driven and rare enough that value will increase with some changes in demand. Also I think pre-1975 is becoming the norm at least for "classic" cars as well. Of course some cars are too rare to be driven much or are only objects of desire. I fall into the latter more often than the former. I buy cars that I think will appreciate that I have always liked. I may or may not drive them much.

I find it interesting the cars you mention to me as the ones you'd think are potentially collectable BMW's. I have little interest in most of those models being the market (and my desires for a cool old car), are not biased toward the 4 cylinder BMW's or for that matter the 4 door 1970's vintage BMW cars. They maybe ok to drive, but other manufactures at the time made more intereresting cars to own and enjoy, at least in my opinion. I've also owned some of the cars you've mentioned before, I don't have them now, so that really made my decsion compared to other cars I've kept. THe 507 and CSL's are already collectable, the standard CS coupes are getting there. 502???

I'd rather own a 1968 MGC than a 1968 BMW 2800. Or a 1967 Austin Healey 3000 over a 2000CS. I being a collector of almost 20 cars can only afford to house and store so many, therefore I have to pick and choose which I would rather own long term. IF I could buy them all, great I might have one of each BMW ever made, but ultimately only some will ever really be "collectable".

WH