engine and drivetrain BMW 2002/tii prices VS early 911 T/E/S (1967 - 1973)

[Mike Self]

When it comes right down to it, '02s lend themselves to either--they're fun stock, they're fun modified and everything in between.

If you're not looking to make big bucks someday from selling yours, or if what you started out with was modded by a previous owner or just in really bad shape, by all means make it yours personally.

But if you think you might want to try and sell it as a "collector car" sometime in the future, be circumspect about your modifications. Neither of my '02s are completely stock, although you have to look pretty carefully to see the changes. What I've tried to do is make my mods reversible, so I can (for example) replace the flag mirrors on my '73 with the correct trapezoid mirrors if I want to return to stock, or remove the non-original radio speakers without leaving gaping holes.

But the nice thing about '02s--and their owners--is that the brother/sisterhood welcomes all--from bog stock '67 6v 1600s to wild modifications...And that's a big part of the fun of owning an '02.

cheers

mike

[osbourne]

Some clarification may be in order, here: My list of BMWs I'd like to own is based only upon MY desire to own/drive them.....not on any collectibility consideration. Although I can see the various CS models as becoming somewhat collectible (because they're some dmaned GORGEOUS, if for no other reason), I, like you, can't really envision the 4 door, 4 cyl. cars as becoming collectible. I just like them because they're so quirky looking, but practical as only German machinery can be.

502? I thought it was 503, actually....and I'm not real sure of that.

As far as the "driving" part goes, I find that I really enjoy travelling long distances (as much as 300 to 500 miles per day) on 2 lane, "back" roads, driving my 356, or even an MG. Next summer, my wife and I will also use our 02 for some of those trips. The MG ('72 Midget) is about as much fun as you can have in a car with your clothes on, and, on the right roads, the 356 is just plain magnificent. We travel with others from our local 356, MG or Triumph clubs, and we've learned that the best times are to be had with small groups, and loosely planned tours. The smaller classics are perfect for this type of touring work. A modern BMW, Porsche, Mercedes, etc would not be nearly as enjoyable.

[AndyS]

I look at Pooches as the rich man VW. Now a fine highly modified 02 that you can pull into a lot with other 02s present and have the crowd rush to see it, that is the car!

[Guest Anonymous]

I disagree with your premise that because most/many 02's are modified/modifiable they are not as prized by collectors. If money were no object and your TV show was just renewed, which car would you rather be seen in?

I am familiar with Model T's and A's that are unmodified but they do not routinely command any more money than the modified versions. Model T's have routinely been fitted with starters, generators and distributors from - Chevys. Likewise, even a modified Corvette will be more desirable than the same year unmolested Pontiac Tempest.

Celebrity status is a mysterious commodity along with supply and demand.

It may have been a marketing decision, but 02's never had the media attention or public following that Porsche did and continues to enjoy. It may have personally hurt James Dean, but when he died in his Porsche, the publicity did not hurt Porsche's brand appeal. It likewise didn't hurt Porsche when Steve Mc. made a movie featuring the marque. To be fair, the same actor helped the Mustang name in a San Francisco chase movie. The every-man detective probably would have owned an L88 Stingray if he lived elsewhere - since the Vette body would have squeaked and splintered over all of San Francisco's Street Car tracks and uneven street surfaces. If GM lobbied hard enough for the product placement, who knows?>

The 02 may be more like the Mustang in terms of its utility, while the 911 porsche (did not say 914,924,944,928!) is more like the Corvette in terms of its celebrity status. And before MikeS. beats me to the punch, Steve Mcq's girlfriend in the same film drives a what?

There are exceptions to every rule of course, but certain marques cannot be owned or maintained on a budget. I had a Ferrari in the 80's that the quoted tune up price exceeded the value of a stock 02. That's even when the Lira was not the best currency. Try getting decent body work done on a DB6 or a Mark III, 3000. Aluminium fenders are not that plentiful or cheap. Nowadays, if you have to ask how much, those cars are not for you.

Modifications have a lot to do with value and desirability, but public tastes change with the wind. There was a time when used 911's were very easy to acquire as were Pantera's and Gullwings. Muscle cars like the Judge and Superbirds were, for a while, disfavored as gaudy and impractical. Look at them now. Same may be said for Tatoos, which at one time were not all that acceptable in some circles.

When I had a Pantera, I did not really worry about where I parked the car even though the bumpers really "weren't". If I still had it, I would be afraid to park it ion a public lot. I don't feel that way about my 02 and should that day arrive, I will succumb to Range Rover disease.

There is no easy answer to the question posed. Just wait till Barrett Jackson advertises an 02 previously owned by MikeS or Harv or Coop or maintained by CD (SOLD IT!), PaulW with oil changes performed exclusively by JimK. Then you will see prices go nuts.

Bottoms up!

[Guest Anonymous]

Like spouses, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I have owned e9s and e3s. The e9 is no doubt prettier, but it is vastly overrated. The e3 is by far the better built and more utilitarian, of the two.

Owned a Triumph Stag because of the look. Never leave home with it.

Healey was a great car to look at and drive. It never served me very well in inclement weather. Feel the same way about the eType. Magnificent in so many ways until you have to drive it through deep puddles or snow drifts.

As 4-door saloons go, Jaguar had the prettiest. Given the especially nice interiors it is interesting to note that they do not command high prices, nor do many of the Mercedes. But try to find an inexpensive 280SL, or 190 and its like the 911 - 02 dichotomy.

[gregp553]

Interesting topic, and a nice break from the usual. There are some interesting points made, and some points that were almost made, but stopped short. I came from the muscle car era. I find it interesting that someone said the market will correct, which is true. But when I was writing for muscle car rags in the 80s and 90s, a collectible Hemi Cuda could be had for under $50,000. Now? Exactly. Who can afford one? Remember, I got into an 02 for $750 and couldn't be happier working on it every chance I get. It's a hobby, not a daily driver. But if we're not careful, the 2002 market will follow the muscle car and (I suppose the Porsche) market. I'm not familiar with too much Porsche. We don't want that to happen! When that happens, then you get guys trying to sell fairly average 1975 automatics for $12k. Worse yet, someone might pay that. Before you know it, you will be priced out of your daily drivers. And this goes for parts too. Watch on ebay where people are paying $12 for a fuse box cover and paying another $12 to have it shipped. That's $24 for a $10 part. I just got a really clean one at a junkyard for $1. Shop for parts wisely. Don't pay the ridiculous prices. Keep the 02 a drivers' car, not a collectors' car. Finally, I enjoy the huge divide between the modifiers and the bone-stock guys. That's exactly how it is between muscle car owners and street rodders. That's just how it is. And that's fine for both sides. They'll never agree. It's a great hobby isn't it? Let's keep it that way. PS: Where's Alonso?

[osbourne]

As far as "we" doing something/anything to prevent the 02 from going the way of the Muscle Car/911/356/and whatever other old car suddenly became collectible and expensive; there's really next to nothing we can do to prevent it. Sure, refusing to pay stupid money for parts on ebay will help.....until the cars become more popular, and new people are drawn to them, who don't know any better. Then we'll have, in addition to long time, knowledgeable 02 enthusiasts, dealers/speculators, newly rich yuppies and a host of others putting market pressure on 02 cars and parts.

When I got my first 356 (no, it wasn't a new one), they were still in production, and Porsche was really an unknown to all but the sports car enthusiasts in the US. For years after the 356 went out of production, Porsche didn't want anything to do with us (356 enthusiasts), and 356s were, to most everybody, just old, used cars. Believe me, it was a whole lot more fun to own a 356 before the "rest of the world" discovered them, and drove the prices into the stratosphere. Sure, they're being restored to increasingly higher standards, long extinct parts are once again being produced, and Porsche now admits that, yes, once upon a time, they really did build the 356.....but today's crowd of "356 people" isn't nearly as relaxed, fun loving and devoted to driving the 356 as the "old crowd" was.

As far as the Porsche mystique is concerned; they EARNED it. They worked hard at designing, building and racing their cars. They built only sports/grand touring cars, and pure race cars. James Dean had little market impact for Porsche. McQueen came to Porsche at a time when Porsche was already becoming a household name in the US, due to their increasingly frequent overall wins in major endurance racing, and the growing popularity of the 911 (which was far more practical/marketable than the 356). BMW, with the exception of the European Touring Car Chamionship series, really did comparitively little in the way of racing, post-war. Although they were a well respected name among the knowledeable car guys, they built cars primarily for transporting the family, and going to the grocery store, rather than building sports/GT cars (the 507 being the notable exception). So, small wonder that they haven't got the mystique surrounding the marque that Porsche has.

I'm not trying to down-grade BMW here. I'm just presenting my thoughts on why BMWs haven't achieved the collectible status of Porsche, and others, as well as trying to tell you guys that it isn't all bad (lack of collectible status), because it keeps the cars affordable for us.

[Guest Anonymous]

I think some have "hit the nail on the head" here. Problem with many 2002's is just that they're not stock. Owners modify them to suit their needs or wants. Most 2002 owners don't value stock cars much more than nicely modified ones, in that they won't pay 2-3 times the price for a nicely done stock restoration with numbers matching block etc, over a simlar car with "tastefully" done mods. Maybe it's the demographics of the owners and their budgets, maybe it's due to the high number of 2002's made. Not sure. But in any case, the 2002 should continue on at a modest growth rate of value based upon inflation, not the 50-100% jumps we've noticed in the Porsche or other collector car markets.

WH

I've seen plenty of hot-rodded/bastardized 911's (and I own one!), I honestly don't think that's it. I think it has more to do with demographics. The 911, even at the bottom of their market value was still sort of a status symbol car and the market "floor" for them was always much higher than for 02's. I can't remember ever seeing a ratty but driveable 911 for less than about $6K, and that was years ago that they were that low. The Porsches never went through that phase where they were the hand-me-down ratty college kid beater car like the 02's were in the 80's. Of course, you never know, some of the guys who owned them 20-25 years ago may get on that nostalgia kick and might start buying the good ones up and driving the prices. That's basically what happened to the muscle-cars about ten years ago. A lot of the guys that had ratty ones in their teens and 20's are now in their 50's, have big $$$ jobs and have money to piss away on a 67 Camaro or GTO or whatever.

[WH]

There have been some very good points addressed in this thread. We are all car guys, collectors of some sort. People that like to be different and don't mind an old car over a new one for fun or transport. I see many here have BMW's and other rides as well.

As for Carlos question.... money no object and what would you drive, a stock car or modified? I'd probably opt for a stock car, but not a new one, head to the top of the ranks and pull out all the strings, get the car of your dreams, AC, Jaguar, Shelby, McLaren, Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, Alfa-Romeo the list could be endless, but the car would be stock, not a modified version. I'd probably choose a D-type Jag or a late 1950's 250 Testarossa, I've always loved the Miura's too.

As for Steve McQueen, his name is synonymous with many classic cars of the 60's. One of his Ferraris just sold for some big $, just because it was once owned by him, Even though after the restoration, little was left that McQueen ever touched.

That brings up another question, un-restored original vs restored or modified. A car is only original once. How many 2002's fit that bill or for that matter other old cars? As the cars get older, the original unrestored examples are the ones to own. If you can't find them, then original stock is the next best thing.

Personally I'd think it'd be a good thing if 2002 prices would rise some, then at least the car would gain more respect and status in the classic car world. It'd be good for BMW's in general to gain value as most models are underappreciated. Maybe it'd pull them out of some enthusiasts that can no longer afford them. That always happens. It cannot be helped. Classic cars are always expensive to keep long term, hence you must have some $ to do it.

Matt has a good point, 911's where always more expensive to own than a 2002. They never dropped to $500 or less cars unless they where completely trapped out. I have seen and purchased 911's for under $6K in the recent past. Nice ones, not ratty, rusty ones. Ratty ones you could buy for $2K or less in the late 1990's. Ocassonally even today you can find a rusty 911 project for $2-$3K, but restoration would cost you 20 times that price! It's not worth it!

WH

BTW: I do drive my Ferrari to home depot once in a while and my AC to the grocery store! Do I worry about damage, no not really. I park them carefully so that it would be hard for them to be damaged. Most drivers are so careful around the cars NOT to hit them, they're safe. It's only the people that lean on them or that could cause a scratch in the paint are the things I worry about.

[lynxrat]

The biggest problem is...there are still to many of them! Easy to fix and readily available parts supply .

I do not support the idea that there should be a cull, but face it, nobody can really tell the difference between a Tii and a regular model 2002, they look the same.

One thing this group could do is start paying enormous prices for the cars, as the market for the cars is controlled by those of us on this forum and no one else.

Kevin

[WH]

Kevin has a point here....

The Shelby club has done just that over the years, trade cars back and forth between members to slowly increase car pricing as well as completely document the cars historically in a published registry.That's one reason why Shelby's have risen so much so quickly. You can go to the registry to authenticate just about any "real" shelby these days.

I see good ole Carroll Shelby has cut ties with the SAAC after 30+ years being "the" licensed shelby car club. SAAC is pissed with good reason. I just recieved a letter that Shelby is filing a law suit against the car club too, wants all their information on Shelby cars! Carroll says he owns it! Imagine the balls to do that. The SAAC has always been independant of Shelby American. Of course he sued AC and Ford in the 70's and 80's too. Sometimes I wonder why Shelby is considered such a god in the Automotive world. And just think I almost considered buying a super snake from them in the next couple years..... no to that now!

WH

[lynxrat]

WH, you are correct with your remarks on factory correct cars. The 2002 community is consumed by the upgrade philosophy, not the stock philosophy. Should all the remaining Tii's be returned to stock, the value may improve, but, the selection would be enormous.

Documentation is an answer but there is little available. The factory dumped all its records in the early '90s and has very little left aside from production dates, delivery dates and exterior colour which is often incorrect.

We the community have no clue how many malaga's were built never mind taiga's or inka's....we have never cared, vague reference is made with the overused word...RARE. This must be cured...we must do it.

kevin

[WH]

Kevin,

Very good points you have made. But I would say if the factory does not have the build records for 1600, 2002 or 2002tii, turbos etc. The information could still be compiled by an independant source as to originality of the cars left. Sure we may never know how many Inka tiis were ever built. But it would be possible to make a register of the current "known" cars and have them documented as to their orginal correct colors (via photos of under dash pictures etc), VINS and current fitted engines numbers and other "stock" components or options. This may not be important today, but could be crucial for value increasing of the cars in the future. Maybe BMW could never confirm some of this information, and it would be a thankless task and would take years to confirm and register every known car left.

As for the term "rare", yes it is too often used in regard to cars in general. There are very few "rare" BMW 2002's, unless they have a vintage history associated with them. I would even say that the 2002 turbo is not "rare" being over 1,600 were built new, but then again everyone has a different idea of "rare" and what it means to them.

WH

[jwcurry]

As I go "back & forth" considering other vintage cars to own, I find that the Fiat X1/9 remains a stone cold steal. Not a steal on terms of resale, but damned cheap to get into.

However, the car that has really caught my fancy and I find to be fairly in-reach is the Porsche 912. I've been seeing really nice early 912's (mid-to-late 60's) in the mid-teens. Now, that doesn't include a targa but still.......

I definitely see a 912 in my future.

Jerry

[Delia]

I believe what we're seeing in the 02 market is the "winnowing down" of the number of good to excellent unmodified examples to a number that causes the supply to be less than demand.

High demand + few cars available = higher prices for the surviving examples.

My German Auto mechanic back in Michigan has finally decided to retire. He shared with me his regrets about the number of 356s and 911s he modded by removing and tossing things like Speedster bumpers and interior parts. Some cars he dismantled and sent to the crusher would be considered "easy restorations" in this day and age.

It seems to me that a "Sports Car" like a 356 or 911 carries with it its own romantic "mystique" to enhance its desirability and command higher prices. The 2002 as the more practical "Sports Sedan/Grocery Getter" may not cause the same sweaty palms and heart palpitations.

I believe we may have wait another ten years or so to see if a 2002 is more than the sum of its parts.

Till then, I'll have some fun!

Cheers!

Delia