engine and drivetrain BMW 2002/tii prices VS early 911 T/E/S (1967 - 1973)

[AndyS]

Mc Queen drove lots of cars. He was just plain cool. I still don't get the other guy.

[Ray-2002tii]

Meanwhile, back on topic . . .

I'm not going to be popular with my opinion, but here is my take. All the 911's, 912's, 356's etc. I see every weekend are shinning examples of the fine cars Porsche designed and owners cherrish and respect. Even my fellow BMW owners with E9's of the same age as the 2002's follow the Porsche owner's creed keeping their cars very original using correct parts from the correct years. I think that is what car collectors look for and are willing to pay top dollar for vintage german cars in the correct original design. Now look at so many 2002's. So many posts on this board deal with what brakes from what Volvo can I fit on my car? Who has used what seats in their cars? What goofy looking wheel will fit what car? Should I paint my car pearl purple from "Big Daddy Roth" or stick to Camaro orange? Even wood floormats? 3 most important words in vehicle value.....Original, Original, Original! Let the bashing begin! Love you guys!!

I haven't joined the fray -- I've been too busy over in OT telling tall tales about China, and bitching about gas prices. But, now that I've had time to read everything herein, I find the above post very interesting, fascinating, and thought provoking. Here are my thoughts, for whatever they are worth.

I find "value" and fascination in both schools of thought -- original, and modified. IMHO, it takes a special talent to return something to OG. Go look, for example, at Bill Williams' Touring -- an absolutely amazing piece of work. Then again, I am equally enthralled with Paul Cains' 3002 -- imagination, creativity, and engineering genius. Who is to say, which one is better? Or for that matter, why do we have to say?

Personally, I'm somewhat slanted in my views since I spend so much time with the hot rod crowd -- and thus, I am influenced by Big Daddy and Rat Fink, and everything from Rat Rods to million-dollar, chrome-laden trailer queens. I grew up taking apart the 327 engine in the family station wagon (much to my father's surprise and chagrin), and I just love old Chevys. Most of the time, the rides in the hot-rod crowd are so highly modified that they bear little resemblance to the original car from the 30s and 40s. In general, there is a reason for that - performance and safety. I have a 1953 Dodge P/U that I restored to original specs -- and it is one rough riding, slow going, temperamental son-of-a-gun. I would never dream of taking "Douglas" (his name) on the highway -- he and his flathead (and 6-volt system) would probably go into shock if I asked him to go over 40 mph. But, it is fun having one ride that is original. I'm also going the OG route with the Isetta -- more out of fear that Isetta John will cut off my balls if I fail to OG every nut and bolt. On the other hand, I have other projects where I plan to be more "expressive" in my interpretation of what the end product should be (in a word - radical).

Also, those that have seen Otis know that he is not original -- certainly, not with all of that custom stereo work, and all of the suspension and engine mods. I take a lot of shit for that from the purists. But frankly, I don't really care -- I fully anticipate that the question of "value" will only come up when my successors in interest argue over how much to sell him for, after I am six feet under. By that time, of course, I won't care -- since I'll be dead. So for now, I just drive him, and endure (and ignore) any criticisms from the purists who scoff at the thought of three thundering subwoofers (with water-cooled amps) in the trunk. I like Otis, and so does the Sauerkraut band -- and I certainly had fun (and learned a lot) doing the stereo. True, I'll never win any q-tip contests with all of that junk in the trunk, but I could give a rat's ass. And who knows -- Otis's next owner might rip out all the stereo and give him a complete frame up, right down to the last bolt. So be it. In the meantime, give me Otis, my Three Dog Night Greatest Hits CD (cranked to 11), and a good slice of fruitcake, and I'm one happy Otis.

So, what's my point? Simply this -- enjoy your ride. If you like it, that's really all that counts. Let your relatives worry about value, as they money-grub over your grave (as you laugh from above). At least, that's my strategy, and my opinion, for whatever time I have left.

PS -- my brother has both a 71 S and a 356 tub. Both are pristine; q-tip winners every time. He keeps both in those plastic car-bubble things. I don't get it -- but to each his own. Besides, one fine day, when he's not looking, I'm going to pull a Ferris Bueller on him -- on my day off, of course.

I believe the question was why do Porsche and other hold their values so well as opposed to many BMW 2002s. When it comes to value Otis, you read my point but didn't think it trough. Bill WIlliams car is prestine and will continue to go up in value and always be sought after by enthusiasts. Paul Cain's 3002 is also fantastic, a real work of engineering. But I seriously doubt that it will ever be worth the big $x,000 bucks he has invested in it (he didn't build it for the money either, fellow BMW lover and perfectionist). And all those hot rods? I LOVE Hot Rods. I never miss the grand national show every years to see the fantastic works of auto art collected there. But everyone there knows, they will never get the money out of those cars that they put into them. It was all done by a passion for hot rods. Mony invested in a good original restoration will usually out trump a custom any day. My opinion of course. You guys ARE the greatest!

[WH]

This thread has been a well worthwhile read, probably the best one I've seen on this BB for years. In the past I normally came here to read and not participate, but sometimes topics just get too interesting NOT to put your 02 cents in. When most of this crowd was on Roa*fly, I was more active.

I was into 2002's for over a decade and have owned my share. None were "rare" or really stock in any way imaginable although I did try to keep them mostly original. I have been considering a purchase of a new 2002 into my stable of cars, looking for that nice original Tii, ti or turbo or maybe even a touring. Sure they exist, and no I am not in a hurry to buy. I can wait for the right car and price. The key issue to me is to find a clean car, no rot, one that was cared for and not to have to pay market or over market value. I know enough about buying and selling cars to know asking prices and selling can be two very different things. When I look at the current Porsche prices, it makes a smile on my face, not knowing for sure if the asking prices are ever paid or for that matter if those ebay sales ever really go through. I've been on both sides of that coin. In any case, the percieved value of a early Porsche has risen, that is a given, prices have gone up over the past recent years. If they continue at this rate for many years, then other German Marques will probably also see a slight increase over time, being prospective buyers of a Porsche may opt to consider another German makes if the market gets to high for them to afford the car of their dreams. VW prices are most akin, but BMW isn't too far off.

So the notion of "buy what you like to drive and not worry about it's end value" has some merit. But I don't do that in most of the rest of my life, why should I look at cars as being any different? I look at everything I do or buy as an investment, either my time or my money is used in everything I do. I should choose the cars I drive wisely and think about their possible re-sale or value after my ownership time is up, either new or used. It is only prudent to do so. I have passed on purchasing certain cars in years past that had I only have opted to buy, even for the priced asked, I could have been many 100,000's richer today. But that's life! Money isn't the only thing of value, time is worth much more.

WH

[Guest Anonymous]

Harv, I can't resist taking your point in another direction.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but how image conscious are you, with the quasi fluorescent spectag-u-lar paint job of yours? Are you trying to be cool like Delia and have the NYT give you front page coverage? Put another way, doth you make the car cool, or is it the other way around? LOL

Your argument is chicken-and-egg-like. Aspen was always a great place (except when snowed in with the wrong company). Did it become greater because celebrities started beating the drum for it? Is Monaco nice because of the Grimaldi's or vice versa? I get your point, but its a symbiotic relationship and always has been. A royal endorsement, even an implicit one, can make even an emperor's shabby ermine look good and gain acceptance by the multitude.

Rather than focus on "cool," how about plain old "notoriety?"

Sometimes we own things for different reasons. I had a '68 charger not because I wanted one, but because family member left it with me when he shipped out. For some reason, Mustang fastbacks with cragar wheels and turtlenecked drivers seemed to be following me. MikeS, may be sorry to hear this, but I did not acquire my first 02 because of his endorsement, I bought it because I thought he looked like S.Mcqueen! (just kidding although he is more easily confused with J.Garner and says no Stalag can hold him - for long!)

Further on the topic of product placement and celebrity endorsement, it does not hurt Range Rover sales when they are made by appointment to someone with the last name of Windsor. Oh, and why do you suppose Wilder had Swanson driven in an Isotta Fraschini, and Cooper was pictured next to a Duesenberg? "Oldguy" is the only one among us that can really answer this, but I heard their cars used Mystery Oil! (sorry, could not resist)

I am sure you were aware that other notorious people have owned Porsches and not necessarily because of the cool factor. Janis Joplin asked for a Merced-eese Benz, but she bought a used 356. (When she went to SanFrancisco she not only wore flowers in her hair, but also had them painted all over her car.)

McQueen was not always cool, unless you mean egotistical. There are many stories, some of them maybe even true, where he gained his fair share of detractors. If they spoke up now, they would be bucking the tide of public sentiment. He was not the original choice for Thomas Crown, that was another FAQ'er!

Now, back to the program. As you were.

[Otis]

Paul Cain's 3002 is also fantastic, a real work of engineering. But I seriously doubt that it will ever be worth the big $x,000 bucks he has invested in it (he didn't build it for the money either, fellow BMW lover and perfectionist).

My cars suffer from that problem, as well. I have much more money invested in them, than I could ever get out of them (particularly the Dodge PU, which has cost me a fortune, but for which I would be lucky to get $10k, if that). And, I guarantee that nobody would give me one extra dime for Otis-with-stereo, versus Otis-sans-stereo; instead, as noted, most would probably rip out the stereo (not knowing that it is one of only a handful of water-cooled systems in existence). And, all hot-rodders experience the same thing -- we spend waaaayyyyy too much (particularly on senseless chrome), and if we ever attempt to sell, we don't get much more than 50 cents on the dollar. What I do, therefore, is simple -- I don't sell. I just enjoy; others can raid the garage and fight over the liquidation proceeds after I'm gone. Enjoying what I like, while I'm here, is my point, my view, and my philosophy.

I watch my brother obsess over the value of his S-car and his 356 tub. I can't live that way, and I find that viewing cars as investment material is horribly frustrating, and a crap-shoot at best. Who would have thought, for example, that the Barracuda Hemi would sell for a million bucks, whereas a 454 Chevelle is lucky to command $30k? Yet, when I was growing up, nobody wanted the Cuda, and everyone swooned over the 454 (particularly if you dropped in an after-market Hurst). Who'd of thunk it? Thus, I don't worry about it -- I just build what I like and drive the crap out of it. When the day comes, however, y'all come to the estate sale -- I have some real cool shit (including some cool guitars and some way-cool vintage amps -- same analysis as for cars applies to guitars -- except for guitars, nicks and dings and dents and patina actually add value).