1600/2002 Values increasing rapidly lately, my take...

[bmw_jeff]

I pulled this quote from another thread further down the board, but it reflects a trend that is long overdue. A restored '73 sold on ebay a couple weeks ago for $23k. And now this one:

My copy of Autoweek that arrived yesterday reported that a 1-owner 1970 2002 (desert tan with a saddle vinyl interior) that had been restored (in North Carolina) in 1990 just sold for $22,000 in a Florida auction. This was described as a good, but not perfect car, with paint chips on the front. 39 pages of receipts accompanied the car

With BMW now the "top teir" marquee brand, 02's are way undervalued, particularly the earliest cars. Try finding a nice original spec 67-70 car, it's nearly impossible. The rarest (for original condition cars) I believe is a '68 2002, followed very closely by '67 1600's. I'm always looking at early cars for sale over the past 5 years and I have seen NO '68 2002's other than total beaters/rustys or completely modified cars. The only '67 1600 I've found is the one I own. There is a huge list of unique parts on the 67/very early 68 cars making them even more rare when complete. The early 1600 is the world's first "sports sedan" and defined the class, and it was the car that single-handedly saved BMW from bankruptcy so the marque owes much to the 1600/2002 Any decently restored/mostly original early '02 should be over $20k IMHO. Show quality cars should be over $30k. What other restored classic car can you get now for under $20k, nothing really? Even classic American cars, of which hundreds-of--thousands were sold (compared to 2500-15000? 02's per year in US depending on year and model), are worth over $20k. And BMW is the top "brand name". The market is finally recognizing our cars!

[74tiiGolf]

And it certainly helps me feel better when I write gigantic checks to the guys painting my disassembled tii!

[Delia]

It's a subjective market.

As much as I agree with your estimate of what "should" be most highly valued, the NADA classic car value guide doesn't agree -- topping out the early 1600-2 at ~$10K while the'72-'73 tii models are over $30K. A 1600ti is valued even less.

According to Macartney, there were nearly 45,000 1600s built between 1966 and 1967, so there were actually quit a few built worldwide. They were rust-buckets because they lacked proper rustproofing technology and since they were "sedan" or "saloons" they failed to be sexy enough to warrant "Porsche-like" cache.

Because of the RM and Barrett-Jackson Auctions in the past couple years with plain-jane 02s bidding in the $20K range, this question of "Value" has come up several times.

Here's a recent thread:

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/component/option,com_forum/Itemid,50/page,viewtopic/t,304448/highlight,/

Then, there's rarity vs. desirability debate...tii prices going up? Here's one reason:

Delia

[MichaelP]

The market is finally recognizing our cars!

I gotta say, I don't understand this logic. It's a wild guess, but I suspect most people on this board are not all that wealthy -- at least not the kind of folks who drop silly money on cars. Am I right that most people here got into 02s because they were fun -- and not particularly expensive? If/when prices go nuts for 02s, I will certainly be priced out of ownership, save the car that I own. No longer will it be fun and easy to pick up and swap around these little heaps. You see precious few 02s driving around these days; collecting/hoarding will just tuck more of them away as garage queens. Sad.

[jerry]

i think that as long as there remain a sizeable pool of available cars that the value will track the old familiar 'supply and demand' curve.

furthermore, until people like me stop driving around town in POS 02's the cache of the 02 will continue to be depressed. I don't see many beat up vintage VW's anymore; not like the good 'ol days. or similarly, 356, 912's and most 911's seem in good shape.

my hero is a local elderly tiburon guy who's been driving the same 356C cabriolet around town for decades with original faded red paint and the hint of rust where the paint has thinned. i love that car, just the way it is. i'm sure he's turned down dozens of offers on that car.

as for 02's, another factor i'm sure will drive up the cost is that it's getting harder and harder to refresh rubber gaskets and such and replacing that stuff is getting more expensive. these cars will no longer be feasible for high-schoolers or cheap skates like me. i for one welcome 3rd party knock-offs.

[daniswaytough]

i hope these car's don't go up in value. I love them as much as classic Ferrari's, but the difference is, i can't afford or drive a classic Ferrari. That's what makes the 02 great. They're fantastic vintage sporty drivers, that you can actually play with and drive daily. They're available, for the most part, to your everyday guy with a love for vintage cars. The 02 keep that classic garage-mechanic spirit alive. That's what makes them special.

I hope barret jackson doesn't get his hands on our babies and start whoring them out as objectified show pieces. Otherwise, all that is romantic and sacred will be dead, and only well-to-do assholes will be able to appreciate them: privately, behind glass walls, and in their personal show rooms.

i'll drive my 02 off a cliff with me in it before i let her spend the rest of her life dying in a museum

real talk.

[1936spyder]

Well-

I've found that cars which one couldn't afford in their teens/early '20's become "affordable" when one reaches a certain age/status of wealth/level of disposable income. We've all seen this with tri-Chevy's (55-57), tri-T birds(55-57), '59 Caddies, muscle cars, less desirable Ferraris, etc.

As '02's are not being manufactured anymore, there is a finite # of cars in existence but a growing # of people (mostly 40ish, but some pups:)-) who are now looking to fulfill those teenage dreams. It's just a case of supply and demand as these cars are being "rediscovered". In addition (as Delia noted), the potential reintroduction of the tii, MT's restoration of the Inka tii and the new 1-series being hailed as a modern '02 of sorts all only serve to accentuate and accelerate the current interest in these simple but sweet little cars w/a bunch of personality...

It's a double-edged sword of sorts now for the have's and have-not's as it was also mentioned in this thread that many of us aren't wealthy per-se and nickel and dime the heck out of our toys. But oh well, change is inevitable I guess. One can't keep a secret for ever!

Wendell

[ClayW]

Personally, I don't think of automobiles as equity, since I don't plan on ever selling mine and most of them drop so steeply in value that they can hardly be considered investments.

I do, however, see the advantage in equity as far as insurance is concerned. As long as accepted insured values stay with or higher than market values on these cars, I will be happy. When my last 02 got rear-ended, the initial offer from State Farm was "in the $150 to $200" range for the totalled vehicle. Blow me. (Just get a lawyer....)

With these cars being valued better, there's less and less chance that we'll get screwed when some girl in an SUV can't put her phone down.

[Mike Self]

I'd much rather be driving my car than gazing fondly at in in my garage, so having them get more valuable is a mixed blessing for me. As we all know, you don't get rich restoring cars--just lucky sometimes--so we're in it for the fun of driving, not to mention the cameraderie.

This may be a case of "don't wish for something too much, you just might get it."

cheers

mike

[bmw_jeff]

It's a subjective market.

According to Macartney, there were nearly 45,000 1600s built between 1966 and 1967, so there were actually quit a few built worldwide. They were rust-buckets because they lacked proper rustproofing technology and since they were "sedan" or "saloons" they failed to be sexy enough to warrant "Porsche-like" cache.

Delia

The key there is "worldwide". The US only got about 2,500-3000 '67s and no 66's unless they were special imports by rich folks or overseas servicemen etc. BMW did not start a big "showroom" push for the '02 in the USA until 1968 (full US spec cars), and the 67's did not even have US-Engligh stickers, they are all in German except they had a MPH odometer. The other 42,000 in Europe have nearly all been crushed due to road laws in Europe regarding old cars and safety inspections, plus the rust bug. I read at one point (1980's?) there were 30,000 '02s going to the crusher each year across Europe, before they became at all collectible. From my research there are only a handful of 66-67's in drivable condition around in Europe, similar to the US. It's nearly impossible to find one for sale overseas too, its not just a US thing. That's how we can tell how rare they are, even without the production figures...

[bmw_jeff]

i hope these car's don't go up in value. I love them as much as classic Ferrari's, but the difference is, i can't afford or drive a classic Ferrari. That's what makes the 02 great. They're fantastic vintage sporty drivers, that you can actually play with and drive daily. They're available, for the most part, to your everyday guy with a love for vintage cars. The 02 keep that classic garage-mechanic spirit alive. That's what makes them special.

I hope barret jackson doesn't get his hands on our babies and start whoring them out as objectified show pieces. Otherwise, all that is romantic and sacred will be dead, and only well-to-do assholes will be able to appreciate them: privately, behind glass walls, and in their personal show rooms.

I don't think we need to worry about either of those things happening, our 02's will never be near a classic Ferrari in cost or in "garage queen" status. But regardless the car is undervalued relative to other cars of the 60's-early 70's and it would be great if you could fix your '02 up without feeling like your money is being totally lost because your car never appreciates in value (like most other vintage cars do). Makes it easier to justify $7000 for a paint job and re-chrome when you know you will likely get at least most of it back if you ever need to sell

[Delia]

It's a subjective market.

According to Macartney, there were nearly 45,000 1600s built between 1966 and 1967, so there were actually quit a few built worldwide. They were rust-buckets because they lacked proper rustproofing technology and since they were "sedan" or "saloons" they failed to be sexy enough to warrant "Porsche-like" cache.

Delia

The key there is "worldwide". The US only got about 2,500-3000 '67s and no 66's unless they were special imports by rich folks or overseas servicemen etc. BMW did not start a big "showroom" push for the '02 in the USA until 1968 (full US spec cars), and the 67's did not even have US-Engligh stickers, they are all in German except they had a MPH odometer. The other 42,000 in Europe have nearly all been crushed due to road laws in Europe regarding old cars and safety inspections, plus the rust bug. I read at one point (1980's?) there were 30,000 '02s going to the crusher each year across Europe, before they became at all collectible. From my research there are only a handful of 66-67's in drivable condition around in Europe, similar to the US. It's nearly impossible to find one for sale overseas too, its not just a US thing. That's how we can tell how rare they are, even without the production figures...

I agree about the rarity of the early cars. I'm merely pointing out the collector car market here in the US disagrees with your assessment. Rarity alone does not make an early car more valuable according to the NADA Classic Car Value and Manheim Gold.

I don't make up this stuff. It's not my opinion.

"Don't shoot the messenger."

Delia

[Arshloch]

All of the above is very persuasive. It seems that we are about to tackle this rhetorical question....

makes me happy driving my #1660497

[MAP]

I get more looks then a person with a new M3,M5,M6 and let me add I like that!!!!!!!! score one for the poor guy!

67' 1600 #1530507

[bmw_jeff]

All of the above is very persuasive. It seems that we are about to tackle this rhetorical question....

makes me happy driving my #1660497

Nice! Congrats, you are one of the very few with a 68 2002 still on the road. Hold on to it and restore it back to its original glory eventually

Delia, I know what you mean about the price guides. No shots fired at the messenger I was getting at the fact that the guides are wrong/out of date and that the prices are increasing now after years of sluggish price growth. 10k for a "show condition" 1600 is way off. In late 2006 a '69 non-sunroof, not even original but with nice paint and interior sold on eBay for $9600. A '68 1600 non-sunroof, mostly original, with a cheap re-spray and many $$ cosmetic issues sold for $9100 last month. That would be a mid-value car at best for NADA, which they say is only like $5-$6k. The demand is growing for the early cars and Tii's, every time a nice one is for sale they are going for well over guide from what I've been seeing. Eventually NADA will catch up.