1600/2002 Values increasing rapidly lately, my take...

[bmw_jeff]

Nice, what color is your '67? I get looks in both cars, but more in the 1600 than the M3 because the M3 is fairly "common" here in California. Well as common as an M3 can be.

[MAP]

Was Florida but someone got the bright idea before I owned it to paint it white.

[bmw_jeff]

Was Florida but someone got the bright idea before I owned it to paint it white.

Bummer, its a great color. Florida in Florida, how cool is that?

[WH]

I pulled this quote from another thread further down the board, but it reflects a trend that is long overdue. A restored '73 sold on ebay a couple weeks ago for $23k. And now this one:

My copy of Autoweek that arrived yesterday reported that a 1-owner 1970 2002 (desert tan with a saddle vinyl interior) that had been restored (in North Carolina) in 1990 just sold for $22,000 in a Florida auction. This was described as a good, but not perfect car, with paint chips on the front. 39 pages of receipts accompanied the car

With BMW now the "top teir" marquee brand, 02's are way undervalued, particularly the earliest cars. Try finding a nice original spec 67-70 car, it's nearly impossible. The rarest (for original condition cars) I believe is a '68 2002, followed very closely by '67 1600's. I'm always looking at early cars for sale over the past 5 years and I have seen NO '68 2002's other than total beaters/rustys or completely modified cars. The only '67 1600 I've found is the one I own. There is a huge list of unique parts on the 67/very early 68 cars making them even more rare when complete. The early 1600 is the world's first "sports sedan" and defined the class, and it was the car that single-handedly saved BMW from bankruptcy so the marque owes much to the 1600/2002 Any decently restored/mostly original early '02 should be over $20k IMHO. Show quality cars should be over $30k. What other restored classic car can you get now for under $20k, nothing really? Even classic American cars, of which hundreds-of--thousands were sold (compared to 2500-15000? 02's per year in US depending on year and model), are worth over $20k. And BMW is the top "brand name". The market is finally recognizing our cars!

I think this has been discussed before... but here goes again. Delia for the most part is right on although I do have some reservations about the increases in 2002tii being a "fad" and only temporary till the novelty wears off once BMW introduces the new ones soon. The Classic Mini too had an up turn for about 2 years then values of non authentic Cooper S have diminished since, also the number of mid 1970's cars imported seems to have flooded the market now as well, and prices have not firmed up.

While I agree an early 1600/2002 is desirable to BMW folk, it's just not that desirable to many "other" car collectors. older BMW's in general are not valued as collector vehicles and are not view as a "premium" collector brand in the USA and their prices reflex that. Unlike older Porsche, VW, Mercedes or tons of other makes where there seems to be a larger more "intercontinental" following. Porsches in recent years have taken off, as did VW's and even Mercedes are starting to climb. Not very many BMW's have followed suit. Why??? Could be anyones guess, I think because the average person on the street doesn't know or care what that boxy little sedan is, whereas they think 911's and VW buses and Karman Ghias are cool. I see this all the time when driving my 1970 Plymouth Barracuda around recently as I litterly get stares from everyone and tons of complements. By comparison no one even notices my Alpinas or other near classic BMW's I own when I take them out.

The problem with valuing BMW 2002's at higher and higher value is the competition between other cars available in that same price range. You mention not much can be had in the $20K range. Not true. I can think of a whole lot of collector cars that you can buy for $20K-$30K large (Alfa's,Austin, MG, Lotus to name a few, then there are the American iron (Camaro, firebirds, Challengers etc). As for American classics? That's where the market is and the demand is. If you're talking Muscle cars, no there weren't 100,000's of them built (at least the valuable ones). Not all Camaro's or Firebirds are worth $30-$50K, only the numbers matching documented ones even come close.

Right now it's a hard sell for a fully restored BMW 2002 for the cost of restoration. Mentioning the 1973 2002 that sold for $23K recently as an indication of upturned market?? I'm not so sure as I saw that car in person before and it was nice and was sold by a BMW dealership touting BMW techs restored and maintained it which I think helped it's resale, but the restoration cost $35K. It was for sale in the showroom for over a year. They sold it at a loss! To restore a BMW 2002 and try to recoupe your money is a loosing proposition right now. As for the 2002 sold in Florida??? That price figures in the commission paid to the auction house from the buyer. The seller got at least 15% less (typical auction house sales commission 7-8% buyer, 7-10% seller). Simply said there aren't tons of buyers beating down the doors to buy a $20,000 restored BMW 2002, not even a good tii right now. Only turbos typically command a higher price and that is simply because of the "cult" factor not really because of the mainstream demand for these cars in non-BMW circles.

As for rarity of a car, that alone does not make value, you must have demand too. I've found many a rare car in the USA and opted not to buy them because the cost of restoration and the market value once done made it a loosing proposition at the time or in the near future. (Fiat, Lancia, Peerless, Skoda, Renault, Glas, BMW, Porsche, Austin etc). In hindsight maybe I should have bought the Peerless and the Glas, but even today selling them for what it would have cost to restore it would have been tough to do, never mind finding the parts to do the job!

WH

My list of current "collector??" cars

1954 Austin Healey 100-4 (under restoration)

1956 Austin Healey 100-4 (driver, very original 70K mile car)

1960 Austin Healey Bugeye sprite (my original sports car purchased 20+ years ago)

1965 MG Midget (highly modified almost full race)

1968 MGC GT (pale primerose)

1968 Ford Cortina

1968 BMW 2002

1969 Lotus seven

1969 Dodge Super Bee

1970 Plymouth Barracuda

1971 Dodge Challenger

1978 Alpina B7 turbo E12

1979 Alpina B7 turbo E24 coupe

1981 Alpina B7 turbo E12 sedan

1981 BMW M535i

1984 Audi Quattro turbo coupe

1984 BMW 320i Hartge Baur Cabriolet

1985 Ferrari Testarossa

1986 AC Cobra (yes a 1986 Autokraft from England, Alloy body and Ford authorized)

1988 BMW M6

[dp]

Nice! Congrats, you are one of the very few with a 68 2002 still on the road. Hold on to it and restore it back to its original glory eventually

Delia, I know what you mean about the price guides. No shots fired at the messenger I was getting at the fact that the guides are wrong/out of date and that the prices are increasing now after years of sluggish price growth. 10k for a "show condition" 1600 is way off. In late 2006 a '69 non-sunroof, not even original but with nice paint and interior sold on eBay for $9600. A '68 1600 non-sunroof, mostly original, with a cheap re-spray and many $$ cosmetic issues sold for $9100 last month. That would be a mid-value car at best for NADA, which they say is only like $5-$6k. The demand is growing for the early cars and Tii's, every time a nice one is for sale they are going for well over guide from what I've been seeing. Eventually NADA will catch up.

I am not convinced that a high sale here and there indicates "the market" is "on the rise"

The BEST indicator that "the market" is up is when the people who discuss prices in these threads are the ones who are paying those higher prices...AND that MOST of us are paying those higher prices. Make sense?

[Arshloch]

I get more looks then a person with a new M3,M5,M6 and let me add I like that!!!!!!!! score one for the poor guy!

67' 1600 #1530507

our cars both have a "7" in their VINs. It could be superficially interpreted as 'lucky to be on the road for 40 years'. I assume yours might be one of the earliest in the NA

Mine leaves people guessing what the car is, or otherwise recalling the memories in case of the old folk. Grannies dig my 02, than dogs and some extroverted college girls . The muscle car guys are jealous of its fuel economy and the Porsche guys of its dependability and practicality.

[MAP]

I have owned the car for about 2 years now and the previous owner had it shipped out here(Tampa) from California where it had been owned and reg. (I believe) it's whole life. I have the original black plates (CA)and "pink sheet". I also have the original owner's manual but it has no indication of place of purchase. I tried to do a little back ground check of the VIN# but could not find anything. I would love to know if this car was one of the original few first sold on the West Coast.

MAP

[AndyS]

Some worth more than others. But if you have priced replacement parts lately, then you know they are going to go up in value. Used parts are increasing in price and eventually parts stashes will dwindle. Go buy a couple of smog failed 76s out of CA and be happy.

[WH]

Nice! Congrats, you are one of the very few with a 68 2002 still on the road. Hold on to it and restore it back to its original glory eventually

Delia, I know what you mean about the price guides. No shots fired at the messenger I was getting at the fact that the guides are wrong/out of date and that the prices are increasing now after years of sluggish price growth. 10k for a "show condition" 1600 is way off. In late 2006 a '69 non-sunroof, not even original but with nice paint and interior sold on eBay for $9600. A '68 1600 non-sunroof, mostly original, with a cheap re-spray and many $$ cosmetic issues sold for $9100 last month. That would be a mid-value car at best for NADA, which they say is only like $5-$6k. The demand is growing for the early cars and Tii's, every time a nice one is for sale they are going for well over guide from what I've been seeing. Eventually NADA will catch up.

I am not convinced that a high sale here and there indicates "the market" is "on the rise"

The BEST indicator that "the market" is up is when the people who discuss prices in these threads are the ones who are paying those higher prices...AND that MOST of us are paying those higher prices. Make sense?

Every so many years this discussion again comes up, first it was around the year "2002" when everyone thought the values of 2002's would go ballistic what with the hype around the car from BMW and BMW enthusiasts. Sure values rose for a bit, but didn't stay high for very long.

I would say dp here has it spot on. Once fanatic BMW and other car collectors see a $20K BMW 2002 as a "great deal". Especially those that visit a BB like this and actively talk about the great deal they got on a 2002 for $20K, then the market is on the up turn and values are headed up. A sale of one or two 2002's at auction does not set a precident for cars sold on the street. When the supply of sub $10,000 good daily driver 2002/1600's dry up and the asking prices on craigslist and in the paper for average run of the mill cars is $15,000 or more then I'd say the market is finally turning. Then the cost of re-selling your $30,000 restoration of a BMW 2002 just might let you break even on the bank account...... that is if you BUY a car NOW, restore it NOW and wait till the market agrees with what you've spent.

While I do agree 2002's have risen in value since I bought my first one for $300 and all the others I've bought for under $2000 over the years. I can still find pretty nice cars for under $5000 fairly often. So I guess in the past 15-20 years the prices have doubled, but then again money is worth so much less as well that maybe they've just stayed with even inflation the whole time?

WH

[BLUNT]

It's a subjective market.

According to Macartney, there were nearly 45,000 1600s built between 1966 and 1967, so there were actually quit a few built worldwide. They were rust-buckets because they lacked proper rustproofing technology and since they were "sedan" or "saloons" they failed to be sexy enough to warrant "Porsche-like" cache.

Delia

The key there is "worldwide". The US only got about 2,500-3000 '67s and no 66's unless they were special imports by rich folks or overseas servicemen etc. BMW did not start a big "showroom" push for the '02 in the USA until 1968 (full US spec cars), and the 67's did not even have US-Engligh stickers, they are all in German except they had a MPH odometer. The other 42,000 in Europe have nearly all been crushed due to road laws in Europe regarding old cars and safety inspections, plus the rust bug. I read at one point (1980's?) there were 30,000 '02s going to the crusher each year across Europe, before they became at all collectible. From my research there are only a handful of 66-67's in drivable condition around in Europe, similar to the US. It's nearly impossible to find one for sale overseas too, its not just a US thing. That's how we can tell how rare they are, even without the production figures...

I agree about the rarity of the early cars. I'm merely pointing out the collector car market here in the US disagrees with your assessment. Rarity alone does not make an early car more valuable according to the NADA Classic Car Value and Manheim Gold.

I don't make up this stuff. It's not my opinion.

"Don't shoot the messenger."

Delia

i would love to buy e30M3's all day long at NADA or KBB prices

[norm]

Too bad BMW only made a few models during the 1960's while Alfa had all sorts of cool SS's CZ's TZ'c... while BMW in the 60's had NK range and 2000cs. I feel the NK cars are much more rare, better made with an awesome race history with the 1800ti and TISA. The Neue Klasse class range had more models with dual carbs and than the 2002 based series. I would take a 2000ti over a 2002tii anyday

Norm

[TonyHavana]

Maybe a little off topic, but why don't one of you price speculators take a serious look at this car. Once you get past the whitewalls and pukey paint job.............and maybe it's not all original.... (has headrests), but it is still a titled 1966 BMW 1600 and it's here in N.A. It has been for sale here for over a year, so price may be negotiable.

Not mine, no affiliations....etc...

http://www.trader.ca/powerpage/details.aspx?vlotid=62075&adid=6083995

[eastsidebimmer]

I plucked this baby out of SoCal in 2005. They are still out there.

Ben

[HBChris]

I think Jeff is right on. NADA and other value guides do not track private sales, they are just one indicator. Ask Coupeking what he gets for nicely restored 2002s.

[Arshloch]

That thing is advertised inappropriately and the year might be off. It still has the stupid "horns" in the front, headrests, and no buyers appeal. Aint that supposed be an import of some sort. Apart from that it probably needs huge amount of work and might have been sitting in storage for 20 years or so. Hmmmm. And the last reason is that it might have a wacky seller as well?!