Turbo Talk...

[PatAllen]

John,

I been looking at a turbo application for some of the same reasons Cam and Tom refer to, availability and cost. I drove a 98 VW Passet with the K03 turbo for 275K. During the last part of my ownership the turbo failed and I purchased a new K03 which I never installed before the car was sold (availability). I couldn't return the turbo because I had kept it for too long (cost already suffered), SOOOO, I have a new K03 turbo, oil lines, and gaskets that I keep looking at with interest.

I have developed a drawing for a manifold and collected all the parts to build it. At this point I haven't started the fabrication of the manifold because I have been working on my suspension. The K03 mounts using bolts that go through the manifold into tapped holes. This make it a really tight little package as my manifold is going to use a lower/bottom turbo mounting configuration similar to the original 74 but set back a little to allow for inlet and discharge plumbing to the compressor side.

Here's the big rub..... I'm not even sure this application will work. I'm not looking for a ground pounder just some increase in HP based on a standard configuration. I realize I'll need FI to use the turbo.

My intention is to develop an engine capable of getting 30+ mpg with good performance.

Any application info would be appreciated.

I'd be happy to send the anyone the cad file of my manifold design for your review.

Todd

imho the to3 would be way too small of a turbo for a m10, it'll spool right off the bottom but really fall flat on its face in the high revs, as well as build up alot of heat, a to4 however would probably be a good match

i dont agree, the T3 series can have different a/r to fullfill different engine size/cfm requirements. it is not a "single" part/piece that you can refer to be to small or too large, it is a turbo serie.

It is fitted on a lot of different oem engines ranging up from 1,6L to 2,3L iirc. Just put the correct a/r on both sides and it is more than enough to make a nice turbo set-up. It depends on the taste, ie, lag or no lag versus top end power or flat power band.

it is just perfect for a street driven 02. No race intended, just more oomph and fun.

im sorry brain fart i meant ko3 and ko4 turbos. im personaly running a t3 on my car

Ah, ok dude...personnaly i hate theses small turbo as well. I dont know what model it was but one of my friend got one from a Talon car, Td0 something. Very small to say the least, he broke it during one summer. bearings went south. As a comparision, the bearings on a T3 are 2x larger.

[JohnC]

I'm going to be using the GT2560R which I think is a better match for lower boost levels. That GT2554R looks pretty small. One of the reasons I used the GT2560R is that they come on Nissan Silvia's which are plentiful here.

The GT2X series use a T25 inlet flange which is NOT the same as the T3. You can get either turbo new from ATP Turbo with a T3 option. That's a lot more expensive than going second hand though.

The Nissan Skyline RB25 engined cars had a T3 flanged turbo which is about the size of the GT2554R (roughly), although it has a ceramic turbine wheel, I think, so bad for >12psi.

I am not sure what is appropriately sized and readily available in the USA, in a T3 flange.

Thanks Cam, going back to the Garret website, I see that they make a distinction between the T25 flange and the T3 flange.

I looked at the compressor map for the GT2560R and it does look appropriate for the M10. I was thinking thhe 2554R was more appropriate because I wanted something as small as possible to ensure the quickest spooling to minimize lag. The 2554R is good for up to 270 HP, so given that my objective is well below that, it should be good.

I have no idea what's available in junkyards here, so I've got to do my homework. I was thinking about purchasing new, but I see they're pretty pricey. But I'd rather pay more and get something that is a good match to my objective rather than get something inappropriately sized, so we'll see.

Does anyone know what kind of flange is on the stock M10 turbo manifold? Damn, it's pricey...

[JohnC]

John, whatever unit you end up using, I would suggest that you make sure it will mate with the factory turbo manifold. It makes for a neat package.

Jack, do you know if the factory manifold is T25 or T3?

[oz_tom]

the T3 turbo refer to a very common series of turbo used for a long period of time on several different car, that means it can be found for very cheap used, rebuild or in scrap yards, thus the "why all manifold are T3 flanged"...

translation: availability.

this turbo is also a prooven one, it is antique, surely not as efficient as todays standard, but is rock solid.

I see where your coming from but T25 and T28 turbos are quite plentiful too. Its not like second hand ones are rare. Maybe they are just more plentiful down this part of the world.

[JohnC]

Both Cam and myself are putting/have put on T2 flanges.

Tom, Did you and Cam make your own manifolds? If not, where did you get them?

[JohnC]

John,

I been looking at a turbo application for some of the same reasons Cam and Tom refer to, availability and cost. I drove a 98 VW Passet with the K03 turbo for 275K. During the last part of my ownership the turbo failed and I purchased a new K03 which I never installed before the car was sold (availability). I couldn't return the turbo because I had kept it for too long (cost already suffered), SOOOO, I have a new K03 turbo, oil lines, and gaskets that I keep looking at with interest.

I have developed a drawing for a manifold and collected all the parts to build it. At this point I haven't started the fabrication of the manifold because I have been working on my suspension. The K03 mounts using bolts that go through the manifold into tapped holes. This make it a really tight little package as my manifold is going to use a lower/bottom turbo mounting configuration similar to the original 74 but set back a little to allow for inlet and discharge plumbing to the compressor side.

Here's the big rub..... I'm not even sure this application will work. I'm not looking for a ground pounder just some increase in HP based on a standard configuration. I realize I'll need FI to use the turbo.

My intention is to develop an engine capable of getting 30+ mpg with good performance.

Any application info would be appreciated.

I'd be happy to send the anyone the cad file of my manifold design for your review.

Todd, I would like to see your design for the manifold.

The K03 must be a very small turbo. I see the original performance spec for that motor is 150 hp at 5700 rpm and 155 lb-ft of torque at 1750 rpm. I'm sure that spools very quickly, given the max torque at low rpm, but it might be a little small for my HP objective. But I don't see why it wouldn't work for you.

Yes, going EFI is a good thing, but that's pretty easy compared to the turbo project.

[CamB]

The K03 does look very small:

link to squirrel performance calulator with some WAG on a bunch of the inputs.

My manifold is one of Otis' ones (also known as good & tight). It's Sch 40 mild steel so should be strong/resist cracks and last a long time. I'm not sure he still sells them?

I then had it modified locally for a T25 flange.

I have had a quick look at the GT2554 vs GT2560 - they have the same hot side and its only the size of the compressor which differs. There may not be much difference in the speed they spool, and the larger one can certainly flow more air, more efficiently. It would pay to ask an expert though...

It may be worthwhile considering/finding a turbo with a simple front cover (not the special flanges on some of the GT25xx series - pain in the ass).

[oz_tom]

Mines an ottis one too except a slightly different design to Cam's (more log'ish) and its made of SS. Not necessarily the best material to make a mani out of but if the welds hold out it will last a long time.

[Todd21]

Guys,

I'm way in the dark on this so I'd be open to any and all of your of your sugestions. I don't really trust my ability to read the maps on the squirrel website so please help me.

I purchased the turbo for my 98 VW Passat and never installed it. I don't even know which of the three listed my turbo would be.

JohnC: What format do you need the file in? I'll email it to you.

Todd

[CamB]

I think you need to consult a pro on the turbo - it really depends exactly on which model it is. Assuming it is the same as the one on my wife's Golf GTI, I am sure it is ok for modest power, but it'd really choke the top end.

[Harv]

What about this one with a RBH5 IHI turbo? Am I reading this right that since

most of the red dots are in the center of the graph it would be a good choice?

Oh, and I changed the motor for 1.8 and started the boost at 1500 rpm. I did this because I have a low milage 318i M10 in my garage.

http://www.squirrelpf.com/turbocalc/graph.php?version=4&pr0=1&pr1=1.07&pr2=1.39&pr3=1.71&pr4=1.71&pr5=1.71&pr6=1.71&pr7=1.71&airflow0=0.9&airflow1=3&airflow2=4.4&airflow3=6&airflow4=7.4&airflow5=8.2&airflow6=9&airflow7=9.2&product_id=111

John

[ray_]

Cam, is that your 500hp turbo '02 that's making the folks at S14power screaming like little girls because you're passing their race E30 M3's?

If so, pics please!

Cheers,

Ray

[CamB]

Harv - I think so, although again it looks like the 10psi or so that is plotted on that graph is about all that turbo will be happy with.

Sorry Ray - that 2002 Turbo is not mine. It belongs to a guy called Mike Delmont. He has toggle switches on the centre console labelled "400hp, 500hp, 600hp, 700hp", LOL. It's a very awesome automobile.

I'll be pretty happy if I reliably make half his minimum power. I don't really have the budget to chase more at the moment.

I will provide some details of my car in due course. It's just an engine-less shell at the moment.

For pics of Mike's car, have a look here:

http://www.groundsky.co.nz/index.php?Action=VEN&EventCode=0812&EntrantID=12118

http://www.bmw.net.nz/html/turbo02.html

[oz_tom]

Cam that thing looks fantastic! Do you have a spec sheet on the car or any up close pictures? Sounds like you've got a fairly knowledgable guy in him if you have any questions...

[CamB]

I don't really have a spec sheet or anything like that - from looking at it, I would assume from what I have seen that it's basically "ultimate spec" 2002 Turbo.

The engine is M10 based though - it's not an S14.