Who is the attributed designer of the 2002?

[Delia]

Thank you, 02Anders.

 

I have to believe the truth is out there and it has somehow been muddied by articles written by by persons with less than full knowledge of  BMW history and the Neue Klasse product line that was developed throughout the 1960s and 1970s.

 

For example, it may be difficult, without pictures, for a writer without in-depth knowledge or understanding of the BMW alpha-numeric model numbering system to determine the difference between a 2000 touring, a 2000 or a 2000CS.  One of these three is a coupe, another a four door and the third a three-door hatchback.  Only one of these models bears has any connection whatsoever with Michelotti.  (I'll give you three guesses which one.)

 

A writer with a deadline or a writer who feels that its somehow sexier to assign credit for BMW's success to Michelotti may just lump ALL of the models into one big pile.  The next thing we know, as the talented Mr barthlow has pointed out, carefully researched and documented writing has been hijacked - taken out of context by another writer, compromising its purpose and meaning.  To borrow a phrase, "History isn't what it used to be."  

 

After all, BMW is a popular culture designer brand targeted at upper-class conspicuous consumers in 2017.   Its long and enduing successes in racing, design, engineering and manufacturing are obscured by marketing, the marketplace and quarterly sales figures. 

 

There was a time, however, when the quality of the product meant more than the feedback loop from consumers that now seems to run large companies.  Giving the consumer what they want, for the price they want, is the corporate mantra.  The result is boring, lackluster, soul-less products that look alike, and possess the same features.  That was never the case back in the 1960s.  

[Delia]

As an example of the kinds of alpha-numeric confusion by authors/writers/historians as well as the general public, check out this craigslist ad for a "1967 BMW 2000 Touring".

 

As you can see, it's not a 2000 Touring.  A 2000 Touring is based on the 02 Series and Michelotti is credited in the re-design of the two-door sedan into a three-door hatchback produced in the early 1970s.

 

The craigslist ad obviously shows a 2000 (four-door).  Michelotti is not the designer of the 2000.  The 2000 was an in-house design by Hofmeister and BMW Styling.  But, if you are reading information without accompanying pictures, how can you know?   The only difference in labels/badges is the "Touring" script on the rear panel. So, the 2000 in the ad has incorrectly become, according to the seller, a 2000 Touring; and a 2000 Touring, according to the car pictured in the ad, has four doors.  Wrong. But it's craigslist, so hey, whatever...close enough.

 

There's also about a decade of difference between the introduction of the 2000 and 2000 Touring, but if you are a less-than-informed writer who cares little about history, the past may merely be the past, and a decade here or there is inconsequential.  And look, there's Mchelotti's name, so let's use that!

 

 

https://milwaukee.craigslist.org/cto/d/1967-bmw/6410779514.html

 

A non-enthusiast, or in this case, a less-than-informed owner/seller has mis-identified and mislabeled a car that he actually owns.  Some day he'll be telling his children and grandchildren how he once owned a 2000 Touring that had four doors.  And if he passes away and you argue with his kids, they'll get mad at you and tell you how wrong you are - even though your'e right.

 

This being the case, how does one expect history to be recorded accurately ten or twenty years hence when those who possess (or have in the past possessed) a notable example of the model can't get it right?  

 

All you need is one author to go astray while poorly researching the history of BMW and we all have to suffer - perhaps forever - through mis-quotes and internet reposts of crap that may never be undone. 

 

I'm not sure how you can be a true BMW 2002 enthusiast without understanding its history, but that history is being re-written and then re-quoted with a good deal of inaccuracy on a daily basis.   

 

Edited December 26, 2017 by Delia
repeated phrase, punctuation

[conkitchen]

If you don't like the story,rewrite history and blow it up somebodies else's skirt till it fits your narrative.  It's called Craigslist. 

 

Just like what Frank said to Marilyn about not standing on that grid. 

[joebarthlow]

On 12/23/2017 at 8:09 AM, Rich said:

In an article in the October 2016 magazine, " BIMMER " in a section called Back page, it really looks like a collaboration between the four gentleman, Wilhelm Hofmeister, exterior design and body engineering, with the design work being done by Giovanni Michelotti,  Fritz Fiedler mostly worked on the engine design. Eberhard Wolff responsible for the Newe Klasse chassis and Alex von Lalkenhausen engineered the M10.  I have the article, it is only one page if you would like me to scan and email it to you, hope this helps, Richard

 

please do Rich, thanks. If there's an author associated with the piece, please list as well.

 

From everything presented and found online so far, my current calculation is the 1600-02/2002 design emerged from the Neue Klasse range, which is not a unique perspective. What's missing, though, is the genesis of the NK aesthetic. The only image I have seen remotely close is this scale model by Michelotti in 1958. Somewhere out there has to be some additional imagery reflecting Hofmeister and Michelotti's vision for the NK design. 'The Complete Book of BMW' By Tony Lewin does a nice job of describing the business and engineering aspect of the the NK and 02 series years, but doesn't mentions anything design related. 

 

I have not seen the BMW Profiles books. $300 and out of print. Is there one dedicated to the NK? I'd be interested in seeing some appendix from these books.

 

While the pillar angles are similar to the 700LS, the body shape and grill/bumper is much closer to the NK/1600-02/02 than any other concept I have seen. this predates Corvairs by two years. This model also had round tail lights @mike

Edited December 27, 2017 by joebarthlow

[joebarthlow]

From Italian car magazine, 'AM.' April 1993, profile on Micholetti's career

 

It's a 2 door concept based on the 1500/1600 NK 4 door saloons

caption translated: 

"In addition to the 700, the car of the recovery for a BMW in serious crisis, Michelotti project many other cars for the German company, including the 1500, 1600 (in drawing a proposal for a two-door version), the Touring (to the right). Some elements of Michelotti's style can be found even in the current production of BMW."

 

From 'Domus' Oct 1989

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by joebarthlow

[joebarthlow]

more Michelotti concepts for BMW

 

fromt Italian magazine 'Ruote Classiche' May, 2001

1500, 1961 (looks more 2800 New Six than NK IMO)

 

 

Touring (looks like his design was compromised in production, adopting the 02 front end)

Edited December 27, 2017 by joebarthlow

[Delia]

4 hours ago, joebarthlow said:

What's missing, though, is the genesis of the NK aesthetic.  

 

Somewhere out there has to be some additional imagery reflecting Hofmeister and Michelotti's vision for the NK design.

 

I agree "the genesis of the NK aesthetic" is critical to your argument that seems to favor some kind of design collaboration between Michelotti, Hofmeister and BMW Styling.   

 

And if there is a link either in printed word or more hopefully, images between those parties during the design and development of the NK sedans, well then, Michelotti deserves his day in the sun (which he is already getting).

 

The images from the Italian car magazine do not indicate when they were penned, however they seem to reflect a two-door version of the NK four-doors as stated, and presumably rendered after the NK cars were in production.  They may, in fact, be related to the drawing I lifted from the BMW profiles book that, as noted earlier, closely resembles a Triumph Herald.

 

 

 

When you say, "Somewhere out there has to be some additional imagery reflecting Hofmeister and Michelotti's vision for the NK design," it seems to show a kind of wishful thinking on your part.  It seems you believe the recently-adopted notion that the NK cars were designed by Michelotti and it's just a matter of time before the empirical evidence comes to light.  So far, not much has turned up.  

 

For the record, regarding the 1600-2, the car that was to become the 2002, here's a quote from the BMW Profiles book:

 

"Already in November (1964), the design department was intensively involved with a coupe version of  the E114.  It was planned to change the design from the "waistline" up, to use the 83-hp engine of the 1600 four-door model and set the price at DM 9,500.-. These plans were not abandoned until February 1966 because of the anticipated extra costs.  During 1965 work progressed so well that it was possible to include the construction of a pre-production series in the plans for early 1966.  A bodywork design by Georg Bertram had been approved by the Board of Management in mid-year.  The outline of the new car was ready." -p. 21

 

Also on page 21 is an image of Wilhelm Hofmeister, Georg Bertram and Manfred Rennen, calling them "the 'Founding Fathers' of the BMW 1600".  

 

 

[02Les]

10 hours ago, joebarthlow said:

more Michelotti concepts for BMW

 

fromt Italian magazine 'Ruote Classiche' May, 2001

1500, 1961 (looks more 2800 New Six than NK IMO)

 

 

 

Touring (looks like his design was compromised in production, adopting the 02 front end)

Touring eh?

Looks more akin to Frua's Glas-BMW 1600 GT

[joebarthlow]

2 hours ago, 02Les said:

Touring eh?

Looks more akin to Frua's Glas-BMW 1600 GT

 

the front fenders and headlights do give that impression. Frua's and Michelotti's careers did cross paths a few times. Lots of cross-pollination going on for sure. I think the 1600 GT is my favorite!

Edited December 27, 2017 by joebarthlow

[Delia]

Regarding the Michelotti-designed BMW 700 (produced from 1959 to 1965):

 

Michael Frostick, in his book, "BMW, The Bavarian Motor Works" (1976), takes a few pokes at the Michelotti/Triumph alliance (without mentioning the designer specifically) on page 125:

 

"To all outward appearances a Triumph Herald - but let's just say great minds think alike - the little bike engine fitted neatly into the back and as rear-engine, rear wheel drive was then almost an accepted norm for small cars no eyebrows need to be raised about that.  Planned as a very ordinary  day-to-day transport sort of car, it soon emerged as having very sporting possibilities - greatly to the pleasure of its manufacturers."

 

"For the rest the little closed coupe and its drophead equivalent, looking if anything even more Herald-like, continued to sell well."

 

Ouch!

 

FWIW, The Triumph Herald was produced between 1959 and 1971 with production overlapping the BMW 700 through its entire production run.  Like the BMW 700, It was offered in saloon, convertible and coupe models.  There were also estate and van models.

[Delia]

7 minutes ago, joebarthlow said:

 

the front fenders and headlights do give that impression

 

 

Or, the MGB.

[joebarthlow]

44 minutes ago, Delia said:

 

 

Or, the MGB.

 

I can see that too

[Delia]

Witness the Fissore Elva-BMW 1600 - Trevor Fiore design - 1964

[AceAndrew]

To add a bit more to this.

 

While taking my Automotive Design History classes while attending IED in Turin, our history professor (also the curator of the Turin Automotive Museum and former head of Alfa's motorsport) would focus on different Italian Designers for his lectures.  This was particularly entertaining given he knew many of them personally, and he'd happily tell us rather off-color stories about them.  When it came to Michelotti there was mention of the NK cars and the 700, but no direct involvement on the later sedans (according to my ambiguous notes and old Italian text books).  Incidentally, he pointedly remarked that Michelotti (like most designers) would try to take credit for as much as he could get away with.

 

Sketches done by Jr. Designers would often be signed by those of more "notoriety" in hopes to gain more traction with clients.  I saw this first hand when at Pininfarina, it's just the way the business works and I doubt wether we will actually sort of factual conclusion to this.

[joebarthlow]

17 minutes ago, AceAndrew said:

Sketches done by Jr. Designers would often be signed by those of more "notoriety" in hopes to gain more traction with clients.  I saw this first hand when at Pininfarina, it's just the way the business works and I doubt wether we will actually sort of factual conclusion to this.

 

this was/is common in most design shops, no matter the studio or discipline. 

 

sounds like a great class!

 

Edited December 27, 2017 by joebarthlow