Who is the attributed designer of the 2002?

[Delia]

On 12/20/2017 at 12:00 AM, joebarthlow said:

seven years later we see more credit given to Giovanni Michelotti. Looks like design by committee, though I do like the thought an Italian was involved!

 

https://petrolicious.com/articles/giovanni-michelotti-was-a-prolific-masterful-designer

 

It seems as if LOTS of people like to think that an Italian was involved.  I think one of the reasons for this popular myth is how much emphasis we put on design and fashion.  Good design is far less recognizable than the designer name.  Gucci or Balenciaga?  Bertone or Pininfarina?  We have no sense of style or taste, but we certainly know how to assign credit to a designer to justify our lack of it. 

 

But I digress.  Michelotti was deeply involved designing British cars in the 1960s.   Among those attributed to him were the Triumph Spitfire and Herald.  

 

In the BMW Profiles book, published in by BMW in 2002, there are several illustrations by George Bertram, which show what appears to be the final design concept of what would become the 2002.  There is also an illustration of a design concept penned by Michelotti for a larger successor to the BMW 700.  I apologize for the iPhone picture.   

 

As you can see, there are striking similarities between Michelotti's BMW design proposal and the Triumph Herald.  That's not to say that Michelotti's design was not an influence in the design of the iconic 02 series, but one could arguably include design cues cribbed from the NSU Prinz and Corvair.  

 

I'd love to see a Triumph Herald and a 2002 in a side-by-side design comparison.  Anyone care to indulge me?

 

 

 

 

[02Les]

Ah, Last of the Summer Wine. I miss Compo.

[Dionk]

The Restorer's Reference- " BMW's styling chief at the time was Wilhelm Hofmeister, but it was two of his team

members - George Bertram and Manfred Rennen - who modified the original Michellotti design for the Neue Klasse."

 

[Delia]

Case in point:

 

James Taylor's book suggests the 02 series was a redesign of the Neue Klasse four-door sedan.   That's somewhat different than the claim that the 02 series was penned solely by Miclelotti - particularly as there are no available drawings with Michelotti's name on them that look even remotely like the 1600-2 or it's progeny.

 

So, now we are confronted with the notion that Michelotti designed the Neue Klasse four doors.  Where is there evidence - I mean design evidence (i.e. drawings with signatures ) - as to Michelotti's influence?

 

The Neue Klasse four doors were produced during a financially strained time in BMW's history.  Outside designers - and their fees - were not affordable - particularly when the Neue Klasse cars were completely new.  That means from the ground up - including Alex von Falkenhausen's engine and drivetrain. 

 

David Kiley's 2004 book, "DRIVEN: Inside BMW, the Most Admired Car Company in the World" seems to suggest the Neue Klasse cars were less "styled" and more appropriately (German-like) designed around their mechanicals - a feature found on BMWs for the decades to come.

 

"Chief Stylist Wilhelm Hofmeister gave the BMW 1500 a low waistline and a correspondingly low engine and hood and rear end. This striking outline and the excellent suspension with spring struts at the front and semi-trailing arms at the rear, made the BMW 1500a trendsetter for the entire automotive industry."  

-page 69.

 

Michelotti receives no mention or credit for the Neue Klasse four doors.

 

I've been owning, driving and wrenching on old BMWs for nearly a half century.  It is only recently that Michelotti has been given credit for the 02 series' design.  The first I heard this claim was NOT in 1971 when I purchased my first 2002 and joined BMWCCA, but more than two decades later, in 2005.  A Detroit auto enthusiast (who *really* liked my shoes) waved his cocktail at me and declared Michelotti to be the designer of my Inka 2002tii.  I ignored him as a bit of a kook, but somehow this claim - which never existed before - seems to persist.  

 

Since then, the internet and all manner of written materials have proclaimed Michelotti's pen to have produced the 02 without a single, signed  illustration offered as evidence of the claim.  The signed, in-house design drawings penned by Georg Bertram under Hofmeister's Direction appear to have been either ignored or dismissed by those who feel a need to assign creation of such an icon to a recognized  Italian designer.   

 

If there is proof of Michelotti's design, or even influence in the form of his signed drawings or illustrations of the 02 series, I'm more than eager to  see them posted here.

 

Until then, it is my belief that the 02 series was an in-house design under Hofmeister's direction.  

 

  

[joebarthlow]

the great debate rages on...

 

elegant prose, Delia.

 

As the court of contemporary thinking splinters off into the internet, eventually a definitive statement by a largely credible media source will need to emerge. that may not be possible. Perhaps we'll see something emerge soon while celebrating the 50th anniversary of the 2002.

 

Right now, these sites make the claim. Right or wrong, many people usually don't questions these sources, unfortunately:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Michelotti

https://petrolicious.com/articles/giovanni-michelotti-was-a-prolific-masterful-designer 

(looks like writer used Wikipedia for source)

 

 (at 2:52 looks like a sedan with Hofmeister kink, but no mention of BMW in the video)

 

video from the Michelotti archive shows a 2000 Tii touring at 4:43

 

https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/hsx/2012/11/Giovanni-Michelotti/3718431.html

says Michelotti was a "consultant" on the 1600

 

This is just from the first page of google when searching his name alone. I've asked several sites for their source regarding Micholetti's design connection, but I doubt I'll ever hear back. BTW, I'm not debating who designed what, just presenting the common information out there. As much as I love all things Italian, I also have a good idea how design shops work and how credit for a design can easily me misunderstood, or misplaced. My guess is it was design by committee, in that case, usually the design director gets the credit. And Yes, I do understand many people don't care, but I find this sort of urban archeology quite interesting. I did not buy a 2002 just because it "looks cool" 

Edited December 22, 2017 by joebarthlow

[Delia]

1 hour ago, joebarthlow said:

 

the great debate rages on...

 

 

 

There can be no debate without proof.  That means hard facts, or at the very least, empirical and corroborating evidence.  I see none.  If little is offered other than words, or mere circumstantial evidence regarding Michelotti's design influence, I'll not be convinced.  I remain steadfast in my decades-long understanding.   It seems that, for whatever reason, 50 years after the fact, Michelotti is being wrongly credited with a design he did not conceive or, more obviously, draw.  

 

One other thing:

The image posted above of Michelotti's Triumph Herald-like concept was lifted from the BMW Profiles Book.  It's a factory-issue book and contains numerous scans of drawings/photos from the BMW archives.  If Michelotti was indeed the progenitor of the 02 series, why not include HIS drawings and sketches of something that appears to be more like a BMW 1600 or 2002?  

 

Perhaps Michelotti's drawings do not exist.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2017 by Delia
change tense

[joebarthlow]

11 minutes ago, Delia said:

...If Michelotti was indeed the progenitor of the 02 series, why not include HIS drawings and sketches of something that appears to be more like a BMW 1600 or 2002?  

 

Perhaps Michelotti's drawings do not exist.

 

that's the million dollar question. I'm just amazed how these sites out there can publish an article with out citing credible sources. That's writing 101. I have had several articles on architecture published, which were correctly sourced, yet over the years I've seen other writers pull out and misuse my findings for one purpose or another. eventually it proliferates to the point where it becomes popular belief, facts or no facts. 

[Mike Self]

Everything I've ever read about the '02 body design was that it was created in-house, and that it was a scaled-down and simplified NK sedan.  I can't recall a single Michelotti design with the 360 degree beltline moulding--and the concave sheet metal beneath--that both the NK sedans and the 02's have.  That feature is a definite crib from the 1960 Corvair--a breakthrough design that was copied all over Europe.

 

If you're a BMW CCA member, I wrote two columns (Nov 16 & Sept 17) on design origins that discussed the Corvair features in some detail, and also explored the round tail light origins.   

 

Michelotti did design the 700, and the both the Michelotti and Bertram designs that Delia posted above was to be "an enlarged version" of the 700 (per the factory book)  As you can readily see, it looks nothing like Bertram's ultimate design that again, according to the factory book was "the final design for the '02 series," dated 5 May 1965.  

 

mike

[joebarthlow]

Perhaps where Michelotti mention started was with the 'The Ultimate History of BMW' by Andrew Noakes in 2005. The BMW New Class wiki page cites that book (pg 61) for listing Michelotti as a consultant, starting with the 1500, predating the 1600 by 3 years. I have not seen the book and there's only one mention of it on 2002faq. The book 'Car Wars: Fifty Years of Backstabbing, Infighting, And Industrial Espionage ...' By Mantle Jonathan also mentions Michelotti as a consultant on the 1500. 

 

Is it correct to assume the 1500, design-wise, is the genesis of the 1600? or the 1600 is a 2-door coupe variation of the 1500? I'm no BMW history buff, just weeding my through it all

thanks Mike, I'll check out your articles.

 

 

 

Edited December 23, 2017 by joebarthlow

[Delia]

To further Mike's point, the BMW 700 is a true Michelotti design.  There are numerous drawings, detail drawings and other other documentation in the BMW Archives to support this claim.

 

Similar design cues from the BMW 700  reappear in various forms throughout the British Triumph marque in the 1960s where there is no argument regarding his designs and design influence.

 

Hope you're having fun with all this, joebarthlow... 

[jgerock]

Let's just keep driving the wheels off these amazing cars.  I am grateful for being the caretaker of two and knowing some great friends. 

[joebarthlow]

42 minutes ago, Delia said:

 

Hope you're having fun with all this, joebarthlow... 

 

I am!

[joebarthlow]

"Conversazione con Giovanni Michelotti: Tante, tante automobili" Quattroruote magazine

1978 interview with Michelotti, he takes claim for the design of the 1500, 1600, 2000, 2500, 2800. middle first column.

 

 

 

scale model for a 1500cc coupe, 1958 (from Michelotti archive)

 

His archive claims the following with corresponding year:

BMW
Isetta 250 1955
Isetta 250/300 secondo restiling 57
505 berlina ministeriale 55
600 restiling ante produzione 57
700 coupè 59
700 limousine 60
700 cabrio 61
700 luxus 62
700 LS coupè 64
1500 62
1600 64
1800 63
1800 TI/TISA 64
2000 tilux 66
2000 ti 69
2000 coupè/cs 65
1602 66
2002/2002 ti 68
1802/2002 ti 71
1602/1802/2002/2002 ti touring 71
1502 75
2500/2800 limousine 68
2500/2800/3,0 limousine rest. 73
2,8L/3,0L/3,3L 74
2800 CS coupè 68
3,0 cs coupè 71
2,5 cs coupè 74

http://www.archiviostoricomichelotti.it

Edited December 23, 2017 by joebarthlow

[02Anders]

I think pretty much all that needs to be said about this subject has already been perfectly worded by Delia.  Thank you Delia for taking the time to try (sadly, probably in vain...) to right what is wrong.  I have had several similar discussions, and have reached the point where I have simply given up.  Apparently - with or without proof - people will believe whatever they judge sounds like a cool story.
Needless to say at this point, I personally agree with everything Delia has thus far argued in this discussion...

[Rich]

In an article in the October 2016 magazine, " BIMMER " in a section called Back page, it really looks like a collaboration between the four gentleman, Wilhelm Hofmeister, exterior design and body engineering, with the design work being done by Giovanni Michelotti,  Fritz Fiedler mostly worked on the engine design. Eberhard Wolff responsible for the Newe Klasse chassis and Alex von Lalkenhausen engineered the M10.  I have the article, it is only one page if you would like me to scan and email it to you, hope this helps, Richard