Who is the attributed designer of the 2002?

[TobyB]

I see your coupe

 

and think, huh, that looks

 

like a car designed in the late 50's

and built in the early 60's.

 

A fabulous time for design-

and everyone was looking over everyone else's shoulder!

 

 

t

[joebarthlow]

1 hour ago, TobyB said:

I see your coupe

 

and think, huh, that looks

 

like a car designed in the late 50's

and built in the early 60's.

 

A fabulous time for design-

and everyone was looking over everyone else's shoulder!

 

My point of posting that scale model of the coupe was to show some detail examples seen in the Neue Klasse and 1600-2/2002 models. Finding concept development imagery for these cars has been next to impossible.

 

With car design, we do see a lot of cross pollination among competing car manufacturers and designers. While it's always been that way, apparently the NK models were somewhat groundbreaking for that period. It was a noticeable industry shift in aesthetic. As a designer, I have a natural interest in the "who, what, where, when, why and how" for certain design details, be it a car, a house, a piece of furniture or a typeface. I know there are certain members of this web site who do not care about design and history, won't get it or care. that's fine.

 

That Type 34 Ghia is a remarkable car, one of the best Volkswagen designs. I considered one because, for me, it represents the best of two cultures: Italian design and German engineering.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by joebarthlow

[joebarthlow]

7 hours ago, Rich said:

Here is the article I was referring to, just a bit more information for this research, good luck, Richard

BMW 1.pdf

BMW 2.pdf

 

@Rich

That concept Michelotti built for the car show in that article is very similar to the '56 Maserati 3500 GT he designed. the is a convertible to show the step up to the rear quarter panel like his 507 design has. the second is a hard top, no step up. Cars tend to look longer and more horizontal in the Michelotti drawings than what is actually produced.  

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by joebarthlow

[Delia]

28 minutes ago, joebarthlow said:

 

 

 

 

28 minutes ago, joebarthlow said:

 

@Rich

That concept Michelotti built for the car show in that article is very similar to the '56 Maserati 3500 GT he designed. 

 

 

 

 

Or, as was pointed out in Michael Frostick's book, "BMW, the Bavarian Motor Works",  the Michelotti-designed Triumph Italia:

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Delia

[Delia]

8 hours ago, joebarthlow said:

 

 

I wonder if that blue coupe scale model of Michelotti that I posted previously is a proposal for the 3200CS. 

 

 

Again, in Michael Frostick's BMW, The Bavarian Motor Works, there is an image of the design proposal for the 3200CS. The drawing is from Bertone Studios and the completed car was shown at the Frankfurt Show in 1961.  The show car is an uncompromised execution of the drawing. FWIW, it also has round taillights and was hailed as the successor to the 503 and 507.

 

Another point: BMW's Neue Klasse cars were of unit construction.  This marked a paradigm shift in both design and production.  Cars with a perimeter frame like the 3200CS were outdated.  Their successor(s), the 2000/2800 coupe(s) and the 1600-2, were unit construction as well.  

 

Note: The appendix in Frostick's book appears to be incorrect.  There were 603 BMW 3200CS units built between 1962 and 1965.  

Edited December 29, 2017 by Delia

[joebarthlow]

8 hours ago, Delia said:

Another point: BMW's Neue Klasse cars were of unit construction.  This marked a paradigm shift in both design and production.  Cars with a perimeter frame like the 3200CS were outdated.  Their successor(s), the 2000/2800 coupe(s) and the 1600-2, were unit construction as well.  

 

unit construction style as you say. 1958. Is there anything that predates this model in terms of paradigm shift of design? Before getting to the model building stage, I would anticipate some sketches. was this car built? no, but there are obvious design elements present in this model, which are new and present in the new paradigm shifting design. Could he have collaborated with the BMW team to develop this model? sure. 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by joebarthlow

[Delia]

Not to throw the proverbial monkey wrench into the works, but the Frura-designed Glas 1700 deserves mention in this discussion as well.  Glas was purchased by BMW in 1966 and absorbed into the BMW product line.  Glas vehicles, like the 1700 sedan and 1600GT were rebadged, and as in the the case of the 1600GT, re-engineered to accommodate the BMW inline four-cylinder.  

 

http://storm.oldcarmanualproject.com/glas1700.htm

 

Note the "Hofmeister kink".

 

"The 4-door sedan can be compared in size and status with the BMW 1800. In September of 1963 the prototype (GLAS 1500 with a 70 Hp-motor) was introduced to the public at the Frankfurt IAA.
 

Frua in Italy designed the car. The 1700 was produced between September 1964 until the fall of 1967."

 

 

 

[joebarthlow]

41 minutes ago, Delia said:

Not to throw the proverbial monkey wrench into the works, but the Frura-designed Glas 1700 deserves mention in this discussion as well.  Glas was purchased by BMW in 1966 and absorbed into the BMW product line.  Glas vehicles, like the 1700 sedan and 1600GT were rebadged, and as in the the case of the 1600GT, re-engineered to accommodate the BMW inline four-cylinder.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

certainly. lots of great design from Glas mirroring BMW design. I'm not certain Hofmeister Kink is Hofmeisters. Iconic for sure.

 

In terms of these new, modern design, four door sedans with better motors and racing pedigrees, the Alfa Romeo Giulia was in development about the same time, also using the Turismo Internationale mark as early as '62. I cannot say it's as good a design than NK design, but it's in the neighborhood of design shift

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by joebarthlow

[Delia]

51 minutes ago, joebarthlow said:

 

unit construction style as you say. 1958. Is there anything that predates this model in terms of paradigm shift of design? Of course, before getting to the model building stage, I would anticipate some sketches. was this car built? no, but there are obvious design elements present in this model, which are new and present in the new paradigm shifting design 

 

 

 

A Brief History of Unibody Construction:

https://gizmodo.com/5063277/a-brief-history-of-unibody-construction

 

In the model there are certain styling cues that appear in the Neue Klasse sedans, including the turn signal lens, round taillights and wide grill opening with the double kidney grille.  Also, the front and rear bumpers are quite similar to the production Neue Klasse four-door and 1600-2.  

 

I don't know if one could deduce from such evidence that Michelotti's lovely coupe was more than an inspiration - a muse, if you will - for the Neue Klasse four-door.

 

It's not impossible, however.

 

Gandini and Bertone teamed up to design the BMW 2200ti "Garmisch" show car.  It was shown at Geneva in 1970.  Even though it was a two-door, it inspired the four-door BMW E12, for which Gandini is credited.  

 

Showcars have always been the muse of automakers.  The Italian designers could create impractical and futuristic designs on paper and in model form that require  development of new technology to be mass-produced economically.  

 

The GM Motorama produced all manner of futuristic designs during the post WWII period. If you study the sporty coupes and roadster showcars you will find many design cues that were lifted then transferred to production models in the 1950s and 1960s.  Unfortunately, due to the more practical nature of manufacturing and market demands, those design cues looked a bit awkward on family-sized four-doors.

 

So, if you are looking for a Neue Klasse four-door scale model by Michelotti or perhaps even a  Michelotti-penned drawing in three-quarter view, it may not exist.  That job may have been assigned to BMW in-house designers.  

 

If so, does that mean the Neue Klasse cars were designed by Michelotti?  Or, was the design of the Neue Klasse  cars *inspired* by the design of Michelotti's coupe? 

 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Delia
add picture

[Delia]

Gandini's rendering 

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by Delia
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[Delia]

Pininfarina's Datsun 410/411

 

Note the concave body crease, much like the Michelotti's blue coupe model.

 

[TobyB]

Gaah, that unibody blurb was awful.

 

Lancia, the Citroen T/A, the Beetle (yes, there's a pan, but no frame)  the Chrysler Airflow(?), Nash, Cord...

 

then postwar the Hudson, even Tatra were headed that way.

 

By the late 50's, it's not a 'thing' anymore, it's how a lightweight car was built.

 

(sorry for the derail- small Lancias from the late '50's/ early 60's provided both proportion and detail to lots of 60's cars)

 

t

 

[conkitchen]

my head hurts 

[joebarthlow]

2 hours ago, Delia said:

Pininfarina's Datsun 410/411

 

Note the concave body crease, much like the Michelotti's blue coupe model.

 

 

a similar crease extends to the NK as well, with the hood and trunk lid extending over the front/rear fenders to create a crease. crease carries through the doors. 02 series has a visually similar crease with hood and trunk lid. an outward crease on the door.

[joebarthlow]

1 hour ago, conkitchen said:

my head hurts 

 

feel free to swallow all of these. hope they help you

 

Edited December 29, 2017 by joebarthlow