76ohtwo

Haha ok then!

I'll have her on a jack and I'll get underneath to see what I can uncover. I'll also measure the diameter of the sway bars. For reference; what are stock sway-bars diameter - if you know?

Also, any particular spots to put the jack?

Ok so buy redline MTL for both?

wow, dumb question. 

I wonder if the sound is normal: my car has a whining sound in 1st and 2nd that is distinctive (sounds like reverse in other cars). And I remember that sound in my childhood from my dad's '70 when it was new.

That's exactly what happens.

Hey guys; another question for you!

Pardon my ignorance, but this is my first 02 and some of the POs have done some modification to the suspension. The person that I purchased the car from says it has upgraded sway-bars, Bilstein shocks, and upgraded springs.

Do any of you know how I could identify what kind of modifications have been done to the car? I'd like to know what kind of swaybars I have, what kind of shocks I have, and what kind of Springs. Should I just put the car on a lift and look at the shocks/springs and see what they say? Would the sway-bars have any indication as to the manufacturer?

Thanks!

Thanks. MTL seems to be the consensus; so we'll have to change the fluid to that.

Sounds like my 5-speed has seen better days; but I'll do whatever it takes to keep my 02 on the road. Engine is being rebuilt next winter so maybe the tranny will be too. Hopefully after we change the fluid and tighten things up it'll be ok for the spring, summer and fall. Thanks for all the help, guys!

Does the sound happen under load, when coasting or all the time? What fluid is in the tranny? Try Redline MTL and see if that helps.

All the time; but only in 1st or 2nd; the remaining 3 gears and Reverse don't make the sound. Where can I buy Redline MTL?

Hi guys!

Just bought my first 02 and loving it so far. The car is far from perfect; but I got it for a great price and it's the perfect car for me. When I'm driving, the car makes a strange whining sound in first and second gear, but the sound goes away as soon as it's in third. The car has a 5-speed from an E21. Any ideas?

Thanks!

Turbo M42?

You really don't need that much power in a street 02. Look at Dev02s comment. My 02 has about 110 and I love that little car. I was looking for something quick too, and you really truly only need 150-175 horsepower to make a car that screams. A 3.91 LSD from an E21 will also help acceleration. I completely understand your desire for a fast car - but the 02 really doesn't need horsepower to be fast. If you want to talk mods for an M10, PM me; I've got some great resources.

Otherwise, if you want big power, go M20 with Schrick 292 cam, cold air intake, and open exhaust. Should give you about 200 at the crank.

My car is Chamonix too! Haha. There's a good guide on here which you can use to check the car.

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/_/technical-articles/history-and-reference/2002-buying-tips-how-to-find-a-good-one-r65#

Is the rear end a 3.90 or 3.64?

Those are sweet. If I decide that I want new wheels, I'm in. Unless I can find some R20s.

If you want to sell the seats, PM me.

22 years is not bad life span for such abused parts of a car, rust proof and not driven in snow or not. Heck I've seen 6 year old cars rusting out horribly (think hyundais).

Heck even contaminated steel can start degrading before it's even painted at the factory. Fiat x1/9's were made from old tanks and were left outside for months at a time in bare steel, almost all are rusted out these days.

Regardless save the classics from harsh conditions, the last thing you want is rust or your own/or someone else's mistake causing a crash to such an awesome car. Save the 02 for better conditions and let cheap civics take winter abuse

If I bought a 2002, I wouldn't have the ability to buy another car for the winter. 

Rustproofing is good for holding moisture in and out of sight while the metal rots away unseen.

Couldn't the underside/body/chassis be washed before hand, to eliminate anything in there that could cause rust, carefully dried, and then rust proofed? If we made sure that everything was clean before rust-proofing, wouldn't there be 

M: Worthy of discussion is the downdraft carb on a plenum intake manifold with (factory) long runners can provide equal if not superior torque in the lower and 'mid' range (as compared side-draft carbs). -KB

Interesting thought. I think that the idea of having one barrel per cylinder (two 2-barrel downdrafts) seems more logical - each of the carburetors having one barrel pumping fuel into a cylinder. However, Ireland Engineering recommended downdraft - which is why I originally had them on my list. However, if it will perform better, a 38 downdraft carb as opposed to two 40 DCOE sidedrafts remains an option. I'll have to look at them again. I've also thought about using Megasquirt fuel injection - but I don't know how well that performs or if it's a reliable system. I'll probably (90% sure) use carbs. 

sidedrafts better for more power.  downdraft (singular) is simpler.   

 

driving in winter is not about the snow.  2002's with snow tires on all four corners are fine in snow.  it is the SALT that is on the road all winter whether it is snowing or not that will kill the car. it takes several good spring rains after the last snow to wash it and all the salt and brine dust off the roads.  you need a winter beater.  2002's do not have galvanized bodies or rustproofing and there are lots of nooks and crannies for the salt dust to collect in. ( i grew up in CT....)

 

if you are installing the IE suspension, that is the time to add the fixed camber plates. kinda silly not to while everything is apart.

I know about the salt - believe me.  I've been looking into rust proofing - I believe a friend of mine has had it done to his car, and I'll ask about it next time I see him.

that would be downdraft..singular.  two barrels feeding 4 cyl.  better is sidedrafts...plural.  four barrels...each feeding a cyl.

 

i never had an issue starting my dual sidedraft car when cold.  didn't even need to use the choke.  

 

and i hope you won't be driving this car in the winter anyway. see recent threads about what road salt does to these cars....

 

park it at the first road salting in the fall, don't drive it until the spring rains have washed it all away.

I thought that sidedrafts would be better, but Jeff Ireland recommended downdrafts. Oh well. I will be driving the car in the winter, but if there's any chance of snow I'll find alternate means of transportation. 

I really didnt read all the posts....sorry, ...but I read Rocans!.....I run IE stg 2 and fixed camber plts.

 

U will like the addtl neg camber..its fine for street....

 

feel free to message me if u like.

I'll install the stage 2 system first, and then add camber later if I decide that I want it. :-)

Oh good, I was wondering if I'm just crazy, and wondering why the M42 was even being discussed for torque.  I've only driven one stock 318is with an M42, and it had no torque at all.  Sure, it revs smoothly at the high rpms and sings like my miata, but no balls.  My stock M10 felt better at the bottom end.

The M42 is a 16-valve engine (like many modern 4 cylinders), so they have twice the number of valve springs to compress and stuff to spin, and that just robs power at the bottom end, but allowing more fuel to flow at high RPMs.

 

I would strongly suggest going with dual sidedrafts with small chokes/venturis, and a 3.90 LSD or 4.11.  It's not about the actual horsepower numbers, it's about the throttle response and gearing.  Just touch the gas and all 4 barrels blow fuel straight into the cylinders, and with the help of gearing, you'll be spinning the tires easily.  You're not going to get the numbers of modern performance cars, no.  But you'll get about three times more fun than any EFI/power steering/overweight appliance. 

I was going to use downdrafts, or I've thought about Megasquirt because it's cold around here, and carbs are a pain to start in the cold. I'm definitely going to use some sort of LSD. Also planning on doing the 5 speed swap - so I'll have to look into the gearing. I've been thinking of also doing the S14 crank thing, as suggested in the thread, which would give me a larger displacement. But, as suggested in the thread, I'm going to dabble more with just driving and riding in stock 02s to get the feel first. But these ideas are great for when I get there, which will hopefully be around June.

Scanned from the October 1989 Roundel Magazine

 

 

 

Very, very interesting. Thanks!

M20 swap for sure. I've been more than happy with mine.

Lots more power (especially the torque you're looking for) throughout the power band, cheap to buy compared to an S14, and doesn't sound crappy like the torqueless wonder the M42 is. Honestly even the M10 feels like it has more grunt under 4k rpm than the M42.

Flame suit on...

I like the M20 motor - I've even considered getting a 325i and doing work on that before I get a 2002... but I just don't like it nearly as much.

Fantastic comments from everyone... 

Since you are very, very new to the 2002 world, I suggest that before you do any work at all (aside from basic maintenance and safety concerns) you spend a great deal of time driving the car. That will allow you to know precisely what you want, and before you sink a ton of money into upgrading the car, you will have spent your money having all of the bugs sorted out. That way your car will be reliable and you will become more familiar with the car and, consequently, what more you want from the car. Set yourself up a baseline. 2002's are very capable vehicles when stock. Unless if you have spent a great deal of time driving older cars near their limits, you will not be able to drive the car at its limits. When you have found the limits of the car, you will know what you want from it. 

Will do - driving a stock 02 around can't possibly be boring!

yeah, I hate to pee on the M42, since I think it's a brilliant motor for what it is, but what it doesn't have is torque.  

 

3500, it wakes up and goes >>ZING<< but getting there, I'd be surprised if the stock M10 doesn't equal or better it.

 

M20's great for torque, and it's all growly and stuff.

 

But the M10 is actually a torquey little engine for being as oversquare as it is.  It's a good fit for the 2002.

 

And I was serious about the S14 crank- that would add both cubes and stroke, and both are good for torque.  It's

been done more than a few times- see if you can chat wiith/get a ride with someone who's done it.

 

t

 

 Whoopsie- these pistons would be just fine.  Teach me not to clicky the linky.  I didn't know IE had these-

its a really nice option, as the 1.8i head's easier to find in good shape, and 9.5:1 is a good zippy ratio.

 

t

I'll check out the S14 crank. That sounds like a really good idea for my project, could be exactly what I need to start with!

For what it's worth, I've had two semi hopped-up motors in my 2002, both of which have been dyno'd (admittedly at different times, on different dynos, with different operators, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.) However, hopefully you can at least use the numbers directionally as I do believe your initial goals may be a bit optimistic with the set-up you suggested. People will spout off about all sorts of HP and torque numbers, but I don't believe too many of them unless they have actually been established on a dyno. Note I'm not suggesting that fun is all about dyno numbers, merely that I'm cautious of claims people make without quantifiable back-up. 

Motor 1: Weber 38/38, 292 cam, ported head, 10:1 pistons (supposedly, but I'm not quite convinced.) HP and Torque at the wheels were both right around 105.

Motor 2: 45mm ITB's, Megasquirt EFI, 2.3L bottom end from an S14 (block, crank, and rods), 9.5:1 pistons, same head as on motor 1. HP and Torque again almost identical at about 135-140 if I remember correctly.

 

Both set-ups have really nice low end torque if you are willing to give it a little welly as they say. Totally agree that you should find a couple you should drive in your area. Regardless of dyno numbers, a nicely set-up 2002 is a blast to drive. Best of luck.

Thanks! Those set up both sound like lots of fun. I'm going to seek out someone to show me theirs.

I don't think that 7 seconds are THAT hard to get in a 2002. The turbo is a bad example, all the lag killed it's acceleration times.

 

Here is an example of a 7second 0-100kph (0-62mph) car.

 

Was still a 2.0 (89/80 bore stroke), it had 10.5:1 comp ratio (could have been hemi pistons, i'm not sure), a 300' motorsport cam (similar to a schrick 292' I've been told, but would love to see the actual rates), definitely a worked head, 2 DCOE 45's, A 3.64 diff, and a close ratio gearbox.

 

It was faster than a 2.0 911 S, not bad.

 

If I were you, I would go with 10:1 comp, a 292' cam, DCOE 40 or 45s, and an S14 crank(84mm stroke vs stock 80mm). If you want it cheaper, buy a 2.0 crank that needs attention, and sent it to a shop to weld and reshape to 84mm stroke, a shop here asked me about $200 to do it. If you clean up the intake and port match, you should be close to, if not at 7seconds 0-60.

 

That 2002ti made its peak torque at 5000rpm, but I would bet it made more torque throughout the rev range compared to a stock 2002.

 

Just saying.

 

 

Haha thanks for the optimism! I'll check this out - very interesting.

Perfect!  Then I'd highly, highly HIGHLY suggest giving Matt and/or Nate at Sports Car Restoration a call and set up a good time to swing by.  I'm sure they'd happy to take you guys out for a spin.  I'd even tell them about your plans.

 

Nate/ Matt

Sports Car Restoration,LLC

123 Whiting St. Unit J

Plainville,CT 06062

860 793 2002

 

All this talk is balderdash until you've got a baseline to go from.

I agree. I really do need a baseline. I'll give them a call tomorrow during business hours or shoot them an email. Thanks a ton for giving me this information! The one thing that this thread has helped a lot with is making me realize how much I need to consider where I'm starting from and not just where I'm going with the car - or any car. Maybe if Matt answers the phone, we'll bond over having the same name, haha.

there are bunches of 02'ers in Ct.  where in Ct are you?

 

and...Lime Rock Park is in Ct.  plenty of Driving School opportunities at that track.

I'm in Southwestern CT, Fairfield County. I love Lime Rock - my dad and I go up there every year for "Sunday in the Park" and met lots of nice 02ers there; which is what started my fascination with the cars. A few years back, we saw an Inca '76 which planted the seed. This year, we met lots of 02ers, and one guy in particular this year, Roger, who had/has a white 2002 with a Kamei spoiler. That's what really started the addiction. I have a picture of that car from the show as my computer background. He told me about his stroker, the Webers, suspension, etc, and I knew I wanted to build one. They all told me about the website and that's how I ended up here. Anyway, I'm going to try and find one to ride in - I love karting as well so maybe I'll do some shifter karting - or just regular karting - if I can find it, to practice my driving technique, get a feel for control, etc. 

Mattio523,  I'd humbly suggest that you try and find someone local to you who you could snag a ride along from.  Best way to get a good real world perspective.  Where abouts are you located?

 

I

I'm located in CT.

A 2002tii engine with 9.5:1 pistons and a 285 cam makes about 150 crank HP. I had this setup for years and it was great for both road and track (I used a Norris model 301 cam, which is similar to a Schrick 285). Powerband was 4000-6800 RPM, I often took it to 7000 RPM on stock rocker arms. After I lightened the car to 2000 lb it was even quicker. And no carbs to mess with.

 

This x 10^^. As has been said in many other posts, drive the car, do the suspension mods and get used to that, put in a higher ratio diff, then see what you want to do with power. And do your big brake upgrade and get it working before you increase power.

 

 

13--I still don't understand the nitrous flag, and would like to become educated. My current understanding is that it is for WOT or near-WOT only, which does not sound like a great recipe for the twisties, However perhaps a multi-stage kit would be drivable for mountain roads and closed-circuit road courses, but I just don't know. Here's my question from a previous post. Perhaps should start a separate nitrous thread so as to not hijack this one.

 

[FB73tii] Posted 20 November 2013 - 09:20 PM

I am not down on nitrous, but don't know much about it and associate it with a short boost of power rather than sustained power for say several hours of mountain driving. Didn't know it was used in airplanes--perhaps you can educate us or provide links with the real scoop. I have heard of very small shots used to spool up turbos to reduce lag, that sounds cool. What are the economics if used continuously? E.g., how many $$ per hour? And at what point do you need to do internal mods to handle the added power? Thx--Fred

 

Bang For Your Buck Go Faster Mods

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/147599-bang-for-your-buck-go-faster-mods/page-2

 

Mattio523: The thread linked above as well as the following one may be interesting reading for you. There is also a recent thread on M20 swaps you can find via "search"

 

"quicker" Acceleration

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/148358-quicker-acceleration/

 

PS: Since corners are what you are into I would suggest getting the camber plates. That negative 0.75° (or whatever they are) will make nice improvement in the corners. If you do a lot of straight line driving you might see a bit more wear on the inside shoulders, but IMHO a small price to pay. Without them you  are just going to eat the outside edges in the corners anyway!

Thanks! I'll look at all that stuff - and the first part is especially helpful.

have you ever driven a 2002 before? is this your first car? i would suggest to put your location in your profile and see if there are other 2002's around you can ride in or drive. the spec you described is pretty common for a 2002. the must be someone near you that can show you what it feels like. don't commit to any build until you are familiar with what the "feel" you want feels like.

i would be surprized if you could get anywhere near 140 with those parts. most folks with more build and dual sidedrafts don't get that much.....

 

IMHO, S14 is not a good street engine for an 02, and this is unfortunately where the old saying of "if you have to ask you can't afford it" comes into play.

S14's are stupid expensive (a rebuildable core costs more than a built M10..), getting rare to find and all the power is above 6k rpm. it is wonderous on a race track, which is where mine spends 80% of its life. around town? a nice M10, M42, M10tii, or M20 is the way to go!

the best 2002 initial setup? mild M10, nice suspension and brakes, and spend the rest of your money on a helmet and driving schools.

but then, the more hp/engine swap/school topic has been beat to death before..:-)

Thanks for this. I'm in CT - yes it's my first car, but I have a Tahoe to drive as well. I have experience behind the wheel of several cars. I've never been in a 2002, but heard great things from all of the people I've met who own them. I have a friend who has one - I've just never had the chance to drive or ride in his. I think the S14 would be something further down the road to pursue when I get a higher paying job.

I have dual Weber 40 DCOEs and a Schrick 292 cam  with 3.90 LSD. A few other mods as well including shaved head and block to increase compression, heavier valve springs etc. This set up is rated at 140-150hp. The low end seems quite adequate to me. The performance in the mid-high range is awesome. I haven't officially timed the 60 but I would guess it is in the 8.5-9.0s range. Plenty of grunt for me on the low end relative to what you get after that...

 

You might check out this link for some additional ideas/suggestions about performance tweaks....

 

www.bimmers.com/02/upgrades/engine.html

Thanks! This sounds like a good setup. 8.5-9 is fine - I don't really care about the actual number - more the excitement that comes when you hit the pedal.

For max low end torque and driveability keep the motor stock including the cam, carb and exhaust system. With anything else, your torque curve will be sharper and move towards higher rpm. Stock carburation is ideal for max air velocity at low rpm's. Anything else, and you will loose low end torque, especially with the 38/38. Forget about all the hype you hear with some of these prescribed set-ups unless you want to do the Fast & the Furious thing. I've tried longer duration cams, larger carbs etc. You just end up with bad MPG and lower low end torque. If you want to do any "improvements" you should focus on stiffening and tightening the suspension such as going to slightly stiffer springs, shocks, larger diameter anti-sway bars, new steering components including a good steering box, new ball  and tie rod joints etc and some good tires and rims along with sorted out brakes.

 

You could also change the final drive to a higer ratio (lower gearing), but I would advise against it unless you plan on installing an overdrive 5 speed.

 

Slavs

Thanks for this. This set up that I had listed was based on recommendations from the owner of Ireland Engineering, so I thought I'd post it up here with my questions. I'd like to do a 5 speed, so maybe the gearing would help. :-)

I'd definitely look into an m42, It's a bit of work but it's a nice little setup. It's hard to say but for not much more money the M20 swap probably is not that much more work, although it takes up a fair bit of real estate in the engine bay. The trade off is gobs of torque for cutting into the front rad support to accommodate the 2 extra cylinders.

Either way, I would say go for an engine swap if you want more power and general hassle-free life of fuel injection.

Heck an m42 with blower or a turbo would be an absolute blast. M20 with a Holset hx35 turbo would push you into the super high 300's to mid 400's at the wheels on stock internals. Only issue is building the rest of the car to handle the power.

I'd see what exactly you want the car to do, and look at options besides a hot rod m10. Playing with diffs will hurt you either in top speed or acceleration if you go too far in ratios. If you want a stop light to stop light bruiser, m20 and sticky tires and beefed up rear end will probably blow your mind. If you want a high revving top end power, look into m10/42/s14.

Power demands can also be met with boost or nitrous. The m10 is an absolute monster with the right engine build and turbo. BMW made over well over 1000hp with the F1 "Megatron" turbo engine, although it was a 1.5 variant and heavily worked over and tuned, they did have short lives. That being said an M20 can be pushed into the 600's fairly easy with boost from an appropriate turbo. Basically, what I'm trying to say, is there's a few decent engine choices just from BMW and it all depends on what you want. More and more F20C (Honda s2000 engines) are popping up in these cars aswell. They go to 9000 rpm stock and make like what, 240hp naturally aspirated. CA Tuning makes a swap kit for it but it's pricey.

I'm going to keep looking at the M42. Thanks!

I think that this thread kinda got off on the wrong foot - which is perfectly ok. I'm not looking to build a car that's stupidly fast, just something quick enough to be exciting. The 7 second time wasn't really relevant to the question, and isn't actually a goal. The 140 hp is a goal I have, and according to IE, these parts will get me there. The goal I have is to build a car that I can enjoy on a daily basis that's decently quick on straights and especially in corners. I have all the suspension figured out and just had some questions about the engine, which is why I think it seemed as though I wanted such a crazy fast car.

Anyway, thanks for the comments. 

Honestly you need to just stop in your tracks and think what you're asking of the car. If you want a car that's really fast in a straight line a 2002 is not the place to start. It can be done, no doubt, but it will cost you a lot of money and is not for the amateur mechanic.

A naturally aspirated motor, by design, cannot have a very broad power band while still having tons of peak horsepower. If you want 140hp at the crank, it's likely going to happen near 7000 rpm at your redline. Modern fuel and ignition management can improve the driveability drastically, but it won't have the "grunt" you're after. These cars are about momentum and proper gear selection.

If you're dead set on being able to mash the pedal and having your neck snap back then you'll be looking at a turbo (an m20 or m42 alone won't do it). Unless if you have great fab skills it will be costly.

You'd be better off buying a cheap sport bike and keeping the 02 stock than being disappointed in the 02 because it's not what you were after.

Also ie stage 2 probably won't need camber plates in the front for the street; you might have too much camber for a street car.

Cheap, reliable, fast.... Pick two.

I don't necessarily want to mash the pedal and have my neck snap back, I just want something that accelerates quick enough to have some fun. I'm more about corners.

Just depends on what road you want to go. Either way time has to be spent. It mostly comes down to what kid of work do you want to do. An M42 swap needs new motor mounts, probably relocated tranny mount, new drive shaft, handful of wiring, battery moved to trunk, and a handful of other little things. Where as with an M10 it's all bolt up unless you change trannies, but you have to understand carburetor tuning and be willing to get it dialed in, as well as take a hit in your MPG numbers because it's carbed. But in all honesty, I've thought about building an M42 powered 02   So either way, just remember you've got a lot of work ahead of you. And in all honesty, a stock motored 02 is pretty fun! 

It's a lot to think about. I'll weigh the pros and cons of everything and figure it all out eventually. The M42 does seem like my best option though. 

This is what I was thinking. M42 with mild cam and let er go. M10 with the OP's formula wont make what the OP is asking for.

 

And you can drive an M10 everyday. I do...

I think the M42 seems like a better option now - I was looking into buying one with the swap already done but the guy hasn't contacted me back in a while after we emailed back and forth a couple times. I wasn't saying that the M10 would be bad on the street, but the M10 with all the upgrades I listed wouldn't be optimal.