02 Vintage Race Car project, Heidegger replica

[pkuchay]

Hi all,

After a two year absence from the board I am coming back to throw out some feelers about a project that I started two years ago at SCR. Here is a link to the project. After two very successful years of Vintage Racing a 1967 Porsche 911S I still feel a calling back to my routes with a 2002.

Here are the clouding issues. The way vintage racing is set up both Porsche 911's (C Production cars) and BMW 2002's (B-sedan) typically run together. If I build another B-Sedan I will be exactly where I have been racing for the last two years in big bore, running in the top third of the field but I can't touch the Porsche RSR's that run in the club, let alone the 700 HP Corvette and Can Am Cars. I believe the RSR's can be touched with the right car.

The great news is that my tub with cage is sitting in Connecticut at Sports Car Restoration. I have emailed back and forth with Mark M about his race car project and have spent a fair amount of time on his web page www.alpinabmw2002.com. Here is my conundrum and here is where I am looking to the board for ideas and input.

Project goals:

- FIA Gr 2 or 5 emulation

- 275 HP or more, either M-10 based or M12/7 (preferred but super rare)

- No turbo's

- 5 speed close ratio

- Target weight of under 1,900 pounds

- Reliable

- Great handling

- Wide body, either full Alpina flares or body kit to emulate Gp 5

The M12/7 motor is attractive because the 2 liter version of this motor puts out north of 300 HP, however, I wonder about it's reliability and cost to maintain. Can't use S14 motors because they are not period correct for vintage racing.

I appreciate the thoughts and wisdom of the folks who come to 02FAQ and am reaching out for some discussions and help, especially on the motor build.

Stay tuned, this should be a fun project!

[Tommy]

Very nice job! Although I wouldn't expect anything else from McGinn shop.

Will be waiting to see the progress.

Have you seen that stand design with the bolts used somewhere? I have something just similar but without bolts and it works very well. I can't figure any circumstance where the stands would fall out.

Tommy

[pkuchay]

Matt has this idea and thought it would be a good way to work on the car at the track. I had never been aware of this before, however, it makes sense for tire rotation and brake work. Plus, for storage its nice to have the ability to get the car off the ground.

I spent a lot of time working on the concepts for this project over the weekend. I have a lot of phone calls out to get my mind around the engine for this project.

[pkuchay]

Hmm, this is a good one to emulate!

[pkuchay]

Sold my Porsche race car this week, time to get busy and gather the data and parts I need!

[pkuchay]

Calling out to the FAQ Board for some help. I have decided to move forward with a Heidegger replica. The hardest part (and most expensive) of this project will be the M12/7 motor. I want FIA replica status so this ultimately means that this motor will have to be in the car, however, when you read the GCR's for my Vintage racing club the way the rules are written is that the chassis and body must be from 1981 or older (GP 2 and 4 cars specifically). I have an email into eligibility about whether or not an S-14 motor could be utilized. So, I hope to hear back about that in the near future.

Here is where I need help:

- I have an email into Mr. Heidegger because he has been known to assist people who want to build replica's. My email was sent to him on Sept. 25th. No answer yet.

- Norbert Engels actually drove the Heidegger car at this years LeMan's classics and has a BMW related racing business in Germany, I have an email into him as of yesterday asking for technical information on the car.

- I wrote to Tim in The Netherlands last week about his Heidegger replica because he documented Mr. Heidegger's support of his project back in 2006. He was active on the boards here back in that time but his last post was in 2007 and his web page about his replica is gone.

- Is there anyone on the board that has technical documentation regarding the Heidegger Le Mans winning car? I need details on suspension, dry sump system (assume it's Heidegger since that's one of the things he upgraded on his car), brakes, transmission, differential and drive shafts.

Any help that can provided would be sincerely appreciated. I would also appreciate any leads on the M12/7 motor that hit the market here in the US. There are currently three on the market (one is a 1.6 liter), however, they are all over in Europe and I had hoped to find one here in the US. My strong preference is to find one that needs refreshing, that way I can freshen the motor and know what I am starting with.

Again, any help would be sincerely appreciated.

[Ian]

You might give Marcus Glarner, in Ontario, Canada a call. I've been in his shop, and it's the only place I've ever seen a stack of M1 heads before! He is very connected to elite vintage racing motors, and may know of an M12/7 motor that is in need of a race car. His shop is north of Toronto; here is the contact info I have:

Marcus Glarner Motors Inc.

17300 Simcoe St., Port Perry, ON

L9L 1B2

(905) 985-6556

[markmac]

Marcus Glarner would be a good contact, I had forgotten about him - for both the engine as well as fab.

From what I have read, the Heidegger car was purchased from the BMW racing department and was in fact a car that they had been rallying with. It had a BMW M12/6 engine and ran on a multiple butterfly system. BMW had been using Schnitzer engines (on carbs) because they were easy to fit and developed a lot of low end torque necessary for Rallye cars. For whatever reason, they changed to the BMW M12/6 with multiple butterfly fuel injection which helped on the low end torque. I believe that motor made about 255bhp. They (Heidegger) used 9"x13" ATS allow wheels as well. As far as the suspension goes I am sure they used Bilstein Struts (probably the 36mm AlpinA style) with threaded collars, ditto in the back and probably made the rear suspension adjustable. In order to really dial in a o2 racer you need to be able to adjust the trailing arm suspension. Since they did run an M12 they also ran the alternator in the back similar to my AlpinA car which has an extended pulley and is then driven off of of a pulley just inboard of the differentail output (driveshaft) flange. Below is a link to a post I did on the car back in 2009 with pics and info.

http://www.alpinabmw2002.com/search/label/Heidegger%20%22Lemans%22%202002

[kris]

You might give Marcus Glarner, in Ontario, Canada a call. I've been in his shop, and it's the only place I've ever seen a stack of M1 heads before! He is very connected to elite vintage racing motors, and may know of an M12/7 motor that is in need of a race car. His shop is north of Toronto; here is the contact info I have:

Marcus Glarner Motors Inc.

17300 Simcoe St., Port Perry, ON

L9L 1B2

(905) 985-6556

Marcus doesn't always grab the phone, so keep trying if you don't get him the first few times.

[Lebowski]

This sounds like a really exciting project! In case you need a backup plan instead of the M12/7, here are some photos of a very high end NA M10 build that I think would be close to your target HP numbers... But not sure if this would fit under the rules for your class...

Not sure if you have heard of Paul Burke and his shop Imagineering but let me know if you need contact info. You can find lots of posts and references for him on the MYE28 forum... Looking forward to updates!

[pkuchay]

Thank you all for your much appreciated input!

We have hit a bit of a snag, bear with me as I explain:

I am a member of Rocky Mountain Vintage Racing. We observe several different sanctioning bodies for eligibility of our cars. This includes 1981 and prior SCCA General Competition Rules (GCR's), as well as elements of FIA and IMSA. The way that our current rules are structured, after we opened up our GCR's to allow for 1981 SCCA GCR's, a subset of FIA Group 2 and 4 cars became eligible, however, they have to be above 2.5 liters and run either a 6, 8 or 12 cylinder motors. This rules expansion was to allow for wide body Porsche 911's to run in our club. Anything below 2.5 liters is currently not allowed, period.

As the incoming President for the club one of my roles is to ensure the profitability of the club during my time as sitting President. Entries have been down this year and we are currently reviewing the possibility of a rules expansion in several areas. So, I will be directly involved with these discussions in the coming weeks. Stay tuned on this one. Nothing happens fast when it comes to a non profit board driven organization.

If I opted to ignore these rules I would be limited to two exhibition races per season. Since we don't have points, awards or any kind of prizes for competition this is one option. I could also run in SCCA, however, those people don't have the vintage spirit and after spectating several SCCA events and seeing on track carnage......not my thing! NASA, same thing. Carnage....

I also spoke with Dave Vehger this week about the M12/7 motor. He has enough parts to put together one more motor, however, the costs for doing these motors have continued to escalate to the point where you could build 3 - 4 S-14 motors for the same amount of money and get similar HP and better torque. If you read the SCCA 1981 FIA Group 2 regulations it indicates that the chassis and body must be prior to 1981, however, the drive train just has to be OEM to what the car is. This opens up the option of an S-14 based power plant, however, is not really keeping with what my project goals are, which is FIA replica status.

So, this is where I am after some very in depth reading of the GCR's and what's allowed and what's not allowed in my local club. I spoke at length with a long time and well respected club member about how to move forward and he recommended that I put together a case and present it to the board about another expansion. So, I am going to poll our membership in two areas to see if there is interest in doing a rules continuation and expansion into FIA Group 2 below 2.5 liters.

In the meantime I am still gathering data on the configuration of the car so that I can attempt to gain knowledge of what the parts are that went into this car. So, keep the leads and information coming. It is sincerely appreciated!

[Ian]

One option, if you can use the S14 motor but need displacement above 2.5L, might be to use the 2.7 S14 developed by John at S14Power.com. Here's a link to the project: http://forum.s14power.com/showthread.php?t=6533.

Sounds appealing; 300-400 hp with a wide power band and revs to 9000. That would be an absolute terror in a lightweight 2002!

[Guest Anonymous]

Paul, as I suggested, BMW M12 motors are crazy expensive to begin with and even more to keep running. They are sexy as hell for sure. I had almost forgotten about Bill Watson (Road Rockets, Sonoma, CA), he is right across the street from my fabricator friend Roger Hamlin in the shops at Infineon Raceway. BMW's are his deal. He adapted the mechanical injection to an S38 head for Henry Schmitt (owner BMW of SF) and his werks CSL because of reliability issues with his M49. See link to article below. Maybe it would be possible to set up a mechanically injected M3 long block with a slide throttle from an M12. It would take a lot of specialty fab work but might be possible and you can still get re-made M12 slide throttle manifolds. You would have the "spirit" of the 4 cyl motor with chain driven cams (essentially a detuned modern version of a Schnitzer motor) with vintage correct injection - that is if it can be adapted. No first hand experience with Bill Watson, however I hear he is really good - could be your guy (for both your chassis and engine).

http://theclassicbmw.com/CSLRacearticle.pdf

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Road-Rockets/126461594074465

[AceAndrew]

Seen Marcus Glarner and Bill Watson mentioned.

A couple other leads for an M12 engine.

Lester Owen in the UK.

Peter Hierke in South Florida, believe you could contact him through Predator Racing.

Best of luck.

[pkuchay]

Thanks Guys,

I received some good news today from one of eligibility guys. It looks like I might be able to declare the car a GTS-2 and get away with the body. That's step one solved. We also discussed exactly what Mark brought up, which is to fit period correct fuel injection to an S-14 and get the essence of the M-12 without the ridiculous prices and low life expectancy.

I have a board meeting a week from tonight and we will be discussing eligibility. So, I will know a bit more about what direction the club is headed. Everyone in the club who I have shared the project with wants the car in the club. Everyone, including the 2002 guys are two thumbs up. So we will continue to snake our way through the eligibility issues.

Great leads on the engine guys out there, much appreciated.