body and interior What year (range) seats are these?

[2k2tii]

Hi All,

I need some help determining what year -range- these sets came in for the 2002/2002tii.

71-73? 74? 75-76? Your knowledge is much appreciated.

Cheers.

[conkitchen]

^72-73

^{Earlier seats would have chrome side brackets}

[LarsAlpina]

I agree. Flechtnarbe leatherette for the centers is pre-74 and supposedly 12mm headrest rods is after-71.

 

Regards, Lars.

[jgerock]

Hi All,

I need some help determining what range- these sets came in for the 2002/2002tii.

Cheers.

Those look very uncomfortable in their current condition.  

[Conserv]

I'd say they are '73 model year seats.

Here's why:

 

The head restraints are “tubular”, not  "eared", with widespread supports of the smaller 10mm diameter. (Edit: Maybe not the smaller 10mm, see Lars' post #6 below. Lars believes they are the larger 12mm supports.) By "tubular," they are wrapped front and rear with a single piece of perforated vinyl. "Eared" versions have multiple pieces of perforated vinyl and are more contoured to the head's shape, with fatter "ears" at each end. This shaping helps keep the head centered on the headrest. At the same time the eared version appeared — probably around January 1, 1973 on U.S.-spec cars, in response to increased D.O.T. standards— the supports grew in diameter from the earlier 10mm diameter to the later 12mm diameter. (Edit: Not exactly, see Lars' comments in post #6 below! 12mm diameter supports apparently PRECEDED the addition of "ears". "8mm to 10mm" change corrected throughout this post to "10mm to 12mm".) The eared head restraints with thicker supports seem to have been phased in DURING the '73 model year for U.S. models: early '73 models, e.g., those manufactured in September, October and November 1972, seem to still have the earlier tubular style.

 

The seats themselves have 12 pleats across the central seating area, which simply dates them to before the '74 model year. In addition, the hinges are black not the earlier chrome. Although there is not consensus, there is a lot of agreement that the chrome hinges were phased out during the '72 model year for U.S. cars.

 

VIN 2762204 (July 10, 1972), a totaled Colorado orange '72 tii which I parted out in '74, at 28,000 miles, certainly came from the factory with chrome hinges, "tubular" head restraints, 10mm supports, and chrome escutcheons for the head restraint supports. I retain its almost-perfect passenger seat among my spares collection (photos below). Moreover, the date on a tag attached to its backrest springs is June 20, 1972 (“20. 6. 72”), another date on a tag affixed to its backrest horsehair pad is May 1972 (“MAI 1972”), and yet another date on a tag attached to its seat cushion springs is June 30, 1972 (“30. 6. 72”). Given the relationship of these three dates to the car's manufacturing date -- relatively close to it and preceding it -- I have no doubt this seat was original to this 1972 tii I parted in 1974. Moreover, these three dates also evince chrome recliners being installed in a July 10, 1972 U.S.-spec tii.

 

In conclusion, nothing about the original poster's seats is inconsistent with an early '73 model year date. I suppose a very late '72 model year date is also possible, depending on the nature and timing of the transition from chrome to black hinges, but larger 12mm supports would likely argue against that possibility.

 

By the way, that appears to be a good original Navy Blue interior: needs new horsehair and a little love, but lots of original materials there! If this interior is original to a U.S. model, I'd guess the car was originally Chamonix or Polaris, the two most common U.S. colors paired with Navy Blue interiors.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

(Edit: An excellent illustration of the "tubular" to "eared" head restraint change is post #10 of the following:

 

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/152024-interior-and-exterior-color-combos/?hl=%2Bchrome+%2Bhinge#entry975967

 

Thanks, once again, to Lars.)

 

[LarsAlpina]

Steve,

 

it was 10 and 12mm, not 8 and 10. Hinges are still metal, just not chromed but painted black.

 

There are black plastic rings around the headrest rods and they seem to be fully filled. The black rings were only delivered in 12mm diameter so those headrests seem to have the big rods. Chromed rings were avalalble in 10mm (02) and 12mm (originally E9 but today often used for 02 instead).

Headrests got the bigger diameter rods before they got the ears.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Conserv]

On 1/30/2015 at 10:24 PM, LarsAlpina said:

Steve,

it was 10 and 12mm, not 8 and 10. Hinges are still metal, just not chromed but painted black.

There are black plastic rings around the headrest rods and they seem to be fully filled. The black rings were only delivered in 12mm diameter so those headrests seem to have the big rods. Chromed rings were avalalble in 10mm (02) and 12mm (originally E9 but today often used for 02 instead).

Headrests got the bigger diameter rods before they got the ears.

Regards, Lars.

 

As always, thanks, Lars!

 

I particularly appreciate your point regarding the support diameter and the availability of chrome and black escutcheons for the supports: chrome in 10mm ('02) and 12mm (e9); black only in 12mm!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Edited April 17, 2019 by Conserv

[jgerock]

Steve - your pics above show the seat bottom sensor that my 73 seats have...

[Conserv]

On 1/31/2015 at 9:15 AM, jgerock said:

Steve - your pics above show the seat bottom sensor that my 73 seats have...

 

Jim,

 

VIN 2762204 (July 10, 1972), a late '72 tii, had the seat belt light, etc. The passenger side seat belt, with the inertia reel -- which I retain as well -- also has an electrical connector (which I thought was a '73 DOT requirement). VIN 2762757 (Oct. 19, 1972), a '73 model, needed a driver's-side inertia reel unit and I was somewhat surprised to see the electrical connector when I pulled the '72 car's passenger-side inertia reel out of storage.

 

The late '72 was a mint 28,000-mile car, still in the hands of the original owner, when it got "t-boned" on the driver's side. The driver's seat was bent by the collision -- which is why I didn't collect it -- but the driver escaped with relatively minor injuries and bruises. Granted, I didn't own 2762204 from new, but the likelihood of seat replacement occurring over 28,000 miles and two years -- it was totaled in mid-'74 -- is pretty darned slim.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

Edited April 17, 2019 by Conserv

['76mintgrün'02]

I believe these were original seats out of a '72 euro tii (plastic intake runners).  They found their way back to their car, when it got a new owner.  They look about like the original pair in question, except for the chrome hinge mechanism.

[Conserv]

Quote

I believe these were original seats out of a '72 euro tii (plastic intake runners). They found their way back to their car, when it got a new owner. They look about like the original pair in question, except for the chrome hinge mechanism.

 

Yes, they look like '72-ish seats: head restraints and hinges similar to 2762204 above. I recall the car from the forum; I seem to recall the new buyer posted its production date. I'll look for it.

 

Here it is:

 

http://www.bmw2002faq.com/topic/155753-is-this-a-real-tii/?hl=tii+vin#entry994277

 

See posting #15. VIN 2708759 (February 24, 1972)

 

I know nothing about the cloth-center Euro seats but when you first posted them my reaction was that the cloth had been redone: they're simply too nice, and have too few pleats, to be untouched originals. Someone such as Lars will likely immediately recognize whether the upholstery pattern and the cloth are original. Headrests are "ear-less". The head restraint support escutcheons are chrome. I can't tell if it has 10mm or 12mm supports, but I would guess 10mm.

 

By the by, I'm thrilled to hear that the seats were "re-married" to their original car!

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

 

['76mintgrün'02]

I believe you are right about the cloth being redone.  It looked and felt like new.  I believe they stitched it onto the original vinyl, because that was obviously not new, but quite stiff.  I did not think they did a very good job on the headrests, as you can see a small piece of thin foam, not  reaching the edges... also implying that the job was not original.  There were original paper tags under the springs though.

 

[Conserv]

I received BMW Archives' response regarding the production date of the car from which I removed, in '74, the seat I've shown in posting #5:

 

The BMW 2002 tii US VIN 2762204 was manufactured on July 10th, 1972 and delivered on July 21st, 1972 to the BMW importer Hoffman Motors Corp. in New York City. The original colour was Colorado, paint code 002.

 

Whereas I thought this was a June '72 car, at the very latest, it's actually a July '72 car and is thus quite a late '72 model -- '72 production probably ended in August 1972. So, very late in the '72 model year, this particular car had ear-less head restraints, 10mm headrest supports, chrome support escutcheons, and chrome hinges. I've updated my postings #5 and #9 to reflect this production date information.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

 

[LarsAlpina]

Hmm,

 

stays a mistery somehow. Old parts catalogue says "Modell 71" for the hinges changing from black to chrome. There are late TIs (not tiis) here in Germany that supposedly came from factory with already black metal hinges. And now there´s a mid 72 tii in US still with chromed hinges.

I had my doubts when experienced people here on the FAQ like Mike wrote, that US cars were quite special and that it seems that BMW has kind of "used up" some of the older parts still in storage for completing them. But maybe I will have to accept that as a fact.

 

Concerning the earless headrests I meanwhile had 3 or 4 sets in my hands that looked like untouched originals by leatherette, fabric and foam before I recovered them, but had the 12mm supports. From what both my parts catalogues from 72 and 78 show, those shouldn´t be existing. But I had them in my hands and although thoroughly checked I didn´t find any traces of previous non-factory work done on them.

 

EURO seats fabric:

- 1966 and early 1967. 12 pleats, backrests non-reclining, can only be adjusted in two positions by wheel. Backrests non-arresting, no levers on the outside sides.

 

 

- 67 to 71. 12 pleats, on 1600-2 backrests still non-reclining (but reclining was an option). Backrests arresting with levers. On 2002 reclining seats with chromed hinges were standard.

 

 

- 71 to 73. 12 pleats, reclining for all models, metal hinges painted black. Headrests supports grew from 10 to 12mm within that period, headrests got ears within that period.

 

 

- 73 to late 74. 7 pleats with leatherette on the upper part of the backrest, headrests always leatherette even with fabric interior.

 

 

6 pleats on LUX interior with more voluminous upholstery, backseat with foldout armrest in the middle. Special fabric for the centers, velvet for the side areas facing upwards.

 

 

- late 74 to 77 (from 75 on only model 1502 still for sale, rest replaced by 3 series E21). 7 pleats with no leatherette for the centers anymore, same fabric as 73 to late 74. Black plastic hinges, narrow headrest supports. 

 

 

Lux interior as above but with the newer front seats type.

 

 

Most photos above of complete seats do not show the original BMW fabric. They´re just good for showing the design of the covers and pleats. For the BMW fabric please take a look on the detail photos only . I didn´t find all the photos on my computer I initially thought of for now, will exchange for better ones later maybe.

 

Regards, Lars.

[Conserv]

This is great, Lars! Thank you.

 

We rarely get to see the cloth and vinyl seats because Max Hoffman made the all-vinyl seats a mandatory option from virtually the beginning of the 1600-2 and 2002. When I see, here in the U.S., a cloth and vinyl seat, my first thoughts are: (1.) European version imported used; (2.) European-delivery U.S. version; or (3.) Canadian car -- but I have no idea if many cars with cloth and vinyl seats were even imported into Canada.

 

After BMW NA was created and took over role as sole importer in early 1975, cloth and vinyl seats became available in the '75 and '76 model year U.S. versions. Still, U.S. buyers could not "order" 2002s from the factory -- with the exception of the rare European-delivery car -- as BMW NA assumed Max Hoffman's policy of ordering cars and presenting U.S. buyers only with those pre-ordered cars. I have no sense how many of these cloth and vinyl-seated '75s and '76s were imported; they were definitely a minority of the cars I saw at the time.

 

Best regards,

 

Steve

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Conserv